Kamisori honing angle

[*stefan*]

I recently honed a Kamisori and was surprised how hard it was for me to get it really sharp as a straight razor.

It seems that the honing angle is rather large.
When honing straight razor I have found that if the total honing angle is larger than 20 degree it’s difficult for me to get enough sharpness.

The picture below is just something I found on the internet and put out some angles. Not claiming the angles are correct in the picture.

Anyone know what usual total honing angle on kamisori with asymmetrical grind is?
Anyone know what usual total honing angle on kamisori with symmetrical grind is?
Are Iwasaki made with lower honing angle then general?

Got a bit curious about kamisori knives. Not sure I got the thing with the design yet.
Anyone that get kamisor knives sharper than straight razors?

 

[bluesman 7]

That's a pretty interesting drawing. Notice if you move the 'center line' .1 degrees to the right there would be 10.2 degrees on each side. The 'center line' does not seem to be based on anything inherent in the grind.

I don't remember the terminology for the two sides of the kamisori, but if you let the right side lie on a flat surface and measure with a height gage, or mic the total thickness and subtract the thickness of your surface _ divide by the 'width' from the edge to the contact point on the left side _arc sin_ will give you the inclusive angle. I'd be interested in your results.

 

[SliceOfLife]

I gave up on Kami’s. Never got them as sharp as straights. Are they all 20*+ or do they vary like straights.

 

[*stefan*]

That's a pretty interesting drawing. Notice if you move the 'center line' .1 degrees to the right there would be 10.2 degrees on each side. The 'center line' does not seem to be based on anything inherent in the grind.

I don't remember the terminology for the two sides of the kamisori, but if you let the right side lie on a flat surface and measure with a height gage, or mic the total thickness and subtract the thickness of your surface _ divide by the 'width' from the edge to the contact point on the left side _arc sin_ will give you the inclusive angle. I'd be interested in your results.

Yes, there is no real "centerline” with asymmetrical geometry I guess.
And the picture is not perfect in any way and with camera affect.
On picture below the “centerline” is changed to illustrate your point.

Don’t have a kamisori to measure on and no good measuring instrument.
But think I get your idea, illustrated in the picture below.

 

[*stefan*]

A picture on a possible microtome.
Measured & calculated angle 8,3 degrees.
Angle with picture imported to CAD-program similar, see picture. Perhaps it works rather good with this method.

With kitchen knives and microtome asymmetric grind can help when slicing thin. But I can't see that cutting whiskers will be affected by asymmetric grind. Thoughts?

 

[HazMat Shaver]

Ive been wondering about the edge angles on Kami's as i have recently bought 2. Honed them up and have gotten great shaves. But with the looks of the angles (as i have no way to measure) it seems large to me too. Still, i manage to get a great shave from them and it doesn't feel like shaving with a wide beveled Western razor. Computer programs and pictures are not something im good with so exact measuring this way is out for me.

Id love to know what is standard for a maker of these razors when it comes to bevel angles and how to measure it.

 

[kelbro]

I've been able to get incredible edges on asymmetrical Kamis following the instructions found on some YouTube videos by Glenn (sixgun??)

 

[*stefan*]

I've been able to get incredible edges on asymmetrical Kamis following the instructions found on some YouTube videos by Glenn (sixgun??)

gssixgun perhaps?
Would you like to take a photo like the one above on a good shaving kamisori? Then I can see what angle the picture gives.

 

[1Speedster]

I've been able to get incredible edges on asymmetrical Kamis following the instructions found on some YouTube videos by Glenn (sixgun??)

I've followed Glen's (gssixgun) kamisori honing video myself with various standard kamisori and kamisori folders. A Kenwa folder came off my SG20k with a really nice shaving edge several weeks back, but I don't recall how that edge compared to one of my average western edges. I will shave that one again soon out of curiosity now.

Funny this comes up now that I have all kinds of these kamisori razors in need of honing.

 

[bluesman 7]

But think I get your idea, illustrated in the picture below.
View attachment 1009318

That is the basic idea, but in your drawing the adjacent side would be hard to measure and you would use arc tan. The hypotenuse (left side)will be easier to measure , and then use arc sin

 

[bluesman 7]

Id love to know what is standard for a maker of these razors when it comes to bevel angles and how to measure it.

Bring some to the next Denver meet, and we can measure them.

 

[Bowmaker]

I just lined my kamisori up to the bottom of a sheet of paper and set a straight edge against the other side of it, marked the angle, cut the line and brought up an image of a protractor on the computer. Just took a couple minutes. Mine was 22 deg.

 

[*stefan*]

That is the basic idea, but in your drawing the adjacent side would be hard to measure and you would use arc tan. The hypotenuse (left side)will be easier to measure , and then use arc sin

True.

 

[*stefan*]

I just lined my kamisori up to the bottom of a sheet of paper and set a straight edge against the other side of it, marked the angle, cut the line and brought up an image of a protractor on the computer. Just took a couple minutes. Mine was 22 deg.

Is it sharp and shave ready according to your liking?

 

[Bowmaker]

Is it sharp and shave ready according to your liking?

Yes, but I have just been at this for just a year now and only have a few razors to compare it to and they are all my edges. It's what I started with and still prefer, it may change in the future as I try more razors I don't know. I can usually get it to pass a HHT on the lower end fresh honed and off the strop.

 

[*stefan*]

Yes, but I have just been at this for just a year now and only have a few razors to compare it to and they are all my edges. It's what I started with and still prefer, it may change in the future as I try more razors I don't know. I can usually get it to pass a HHT on the lower end fresh honed and off the strop.

Thanks for sharing! This is the thing I having hard to understand, that kamisori with total angle >20 degrees get sharp.

 

[Bowmaker]

A picture on a possible microtome.
Measured & calculated angle 8,3 degrees.
Angle with picture imported to CAD-program similar, see picture. Perhaps it works rather good with this method.

With kitchen knives and microtome asymmetric grind can help when slicing thin. But I can't see that cutting whiskers will be affected by asymmetric grind. Thoughts?


View attachment 1009324 View attachment 1009325 View attachment 1009328

I view a kamisori as a single bevel tool with the sole being hollow ground. Very similar to how a wooden spokeshave blade works in use (low angle, flat sole, bevel up). I know some guys shave with either side but I just couldn't get a feel for that.

 

[bluesman 7]

I view a kamisori as a single bevel tool with the sole being hollow ground. Very similar to how a wooden spokeshave blade works in use (low angle, flat sole, bevel up). I know some guys shave with either side but I just couldn't get a feel for that.

Oddly, my understanding is that the Japanese barbers use them the other way. The one shown would be held in the right hand of the barber.

 

[HazMat Shaver]

You got it Vic. Be happy to bring them.

Mark, id be happy to store a few of them for ya. I find them fun to shave with. The paper and protractor idea sounds like it could work. Just trying to get the angle on the smaller bevel might be tough. Im going to have to get one out again tonight.

I tried to get a close up picture to post but my phone makes it too blurry. Bummer.

 

[Bowmaker]

Oddly, my understanding is that the Japanese barbers use them the other way. The one shown would be held in the right hand of the barber.

Kanji out, omote against my face is how I do it. I did see a video of a barber using both sides. If it works, it works.