Just can't seem to get there

[Rosseforp]

I'm thinking of ditching the TOBS. No matter how wet I make it, it ends up "cakey" and sticky. Smells great, but more interested in performance while I learn. I've ordered some of the (apparently) good but stinky stuff: Arko, as well as a couple samples from a local artisan that uses a tallow base.

I know it is hard to believe, but if the TOBS is still getting cakey and sticky, it means you need MORE water. You need to add the water gradually. The only proper way to find out when you have added too much water is when the lather "breaks" and becomes a runny mess. Then you have added too much water, but by just a little. What you are looking for is a slight sheen on the lather, not the frothy tips you see in videos, all air and no slick. You need water. Some guys only use water and dove hand soap.

With that being said, ARKO! is great stuff! My LOTH loves the scent

 

[syljal]

I fully agree with all advices you received here. Take your time, short strokes, beard mapping are the basic when you begin. It takes me full year to mastered DE shaving, read here on forum how to do, but one thing i found weird is the 3 pass shaving.
I shave daily with only one or 2 pass WTG , XTG on cheeks and WTG , ATG on neck, with no buffing and touch-up,less pass = less iritations.
When i start DE like you i use wich hazel and alum block with soap and cream. Today i use foam and only razor without nicks or irritation.

 

[JoWolf]

I posted a couple weeks ago in the DE Razor board about my start into DE shaving. I thought I had a good pairing/kit going because of one really good, irritation free shave, so I stuck with it:

Pre-shave: Proraso White (have also tried Cube 2.0 on last two shaves with same results)
Soap: TOBS Sandalwood
Razor: Merkur 34C
Blade: Voskhod
Post shave: Alum, Nivea Sensitive and/or Duke Cannon

I just can't seem to get this right after about 8, 3 pass shaves, with only one that was completely successful (DFS, bordering on BBS without irritation). I thought I had the technique down with regard to angle/pressure, but I keep ending up red and irritated. I still think it's technique issues as the irritation varies shave to shave (neck one shave, cheeks another, jawline another, etc.).

I notice that I have to go over some spots multiple times to get a clean shave, and also notice tugging even with a new and second use blade. Would a sharper blade maybe make my life easier? Is it the multiple passes that are causing the irritation where a sharper blade would cut cleaner? Thinking about trying a Gillette Platinum instead of the Voskhod. I tried the Astra SP before the Voskhod with worse results.

tl;dr: Will a sharper blade cause less irritation?

I thought I had the technique down with regard to angle/pressure, but I keep ending up red and irritated

You do not have angle/pressure down. There would be no irritation if you did.
A shave is three parts. Pre-Shave-Post
Can you enhance or improve your pre or post shave to help elevate some of your shave discomfort?
Your shave will improve when you develop LIGHT touch and Technique. Can only be accomplished with practice. If you are transitioning from carts. Do you shave with a locked wrist? Do you properly follow the fundamentals of a DE shave? The traditional ten minute shave. Not all the answers but some.

I notice that I have to go over some spots multiple times to get a clean shave, and also notice tugging even with a new and second use blade.

If you were cutting a nylon rope with a freshly sharpened utility blade but using a less than ideal angle would it be a good cut? Same physical dynamics for all blades and cuts. It you cut at the ideal angle, pressure and speed it would be a smooth clean cut. Would the following ten cuts be the same? Would you have to adjust for blade dulling, in speed, pressure, and angle to accomplish the same cut? Blade edge dynamics follow wether you are cutting bread, rope, or whiskers.

Would a sharper blade maybe make my life easier?

Absolutely. The more you use any blade, the duller it becomes the more adjustments you have to make in pressure, speed, angle. The question you need to answear. Will a shaper blade at my technique level increase or decrease my irritation? Unless you try a shaper blade you won’t know. My go to blade and the blade I used the most was a Voskhod in my early going. Trying a Feather early on was a disaster. Shredding up my face and increasing my irritation. I exclusively single use Feathers now. I developed LIGHT touch and good TECHNIQUE and repeat comfortable BBS face and head shaves. Bic Platinum, Nacets are a tad less sharp than the Feathers. Check out some reviews to compare and find blades to suit your shave style.

Razor Blades – Refined Shave

www.refinedshave.com

Is it the multiple passes that are causing the irritation where a sharper blade would cut cleaner?

Short answer yes. Regardless of the blade edge. Every shave pass removes skin. Too much skin removal will cause skin irritation. More passes more skin removal. Lighter touch, better technique less skin removal. Less irritation. NEVER Shave irritated skin.
Shaving irritated skin can only increase skin irritation.

You are using good equipment and products. You need to develop lighter touch and good technique. Could other razors, blades, and pre and post shave products improve your shave? Maybe. You would have to readjust on every razor change, and you would have to readjust technique for every blade change. If you are not there yet with the good products you are using. You will have to start over. My point being if you feel you have maxed out the efficiencies available in the products you are using than look for improvements in new razors, blades, soaps etc. Once you can consistently repeat close, comfortable, shaves with your excellent equipment you should explore others if you want to. If I gave you all the equipment I use which produces excellent BBS face and head shaves every shave. Would it do the same for you with the light touch and technique you are using? Or would it be more of the same?

Bottom line repetitive practice will improve your light touch to be lighter. It will also improve your technique. Consider journalling it helped me improve my shave at a quicker rate. You will find some answers to some of the questions you have not asked yet IMHO.

GC.68OC, GOLD GRANDE, YAQI CHROME MELLON - A JOURNEY

I’ve recently acquired these three beauties. The commonality of each razor was, first time shaves rewarded me with BBS. That was very uncommon for me. Especially three for three. I haven’t any idea why, other then they are all open combs. I am not overly technical, I will rotate a brush for each...

www.badgerandblade.com

 

[guitarslinger]

Op,

Less passes. 3 is too many imo. I’ve de shaved almost every day for over 14 years. I do 2 when I have time and 1.5 most of the time.

Try other blades. Voskhod isn’t very sharp for me. Try some Russian or Indian Gillette’s. Israeli personnas are all nice too.

Try a different razor. The $5 lord L6 shaves better than any of the merkurs I ever owned. A vintage Gillette 40’s super speed could be the ticket too. Usually around $20-25.

 

[samhain666]

Throw out preshave, don't need it. Loose the TOBS, I hear they lost their edge and you can get better stuff, I would suggest Tabac. Easy to lather, not too expensive, last a long time and slick as hell.
Also get yourself a sampler pack of blades and do not forget to include Nacet blades.

Try different things to see what suits you. It could be that the razor is not for you. I could not get a good shave from one of the well loved classics (EJ 89) and thought I just can't shave, but changing the razor resulted in better shaves

You said that iritated spots are inconsistent. It younds liek your tehnique needs a bit honing. 8 shaves is not a lot

 

[Benzadmiral]

On the Ten Minute Shave video, his technique of squeezing out some of the "rich lather" from the brush and applying it by hand (ca. 5:30) looks like something I should try on my next 48-hour beard, 3-pass shave.

 

[hangblague]

One thing I don't see among all this good advice for patience is the idea that your facial skin may well adapt over time to the new DE regime. If you learn to play guitar, your fingertips on the left hand are successively tender, sore, calloused and finally smooth but tough and the pain goes away. At that point, you never have pain in the finger tips again, even if you put the instrument away for months. I wonder if there isn't an adaptation process for the face for all those starting out with the new shaving system.

 

[Barbarian80]

On the Ten Minute Shave video, his technique of squeezing out some of the "rich lather" from the brush and applying it by hand (ca. 5:30) looks like something I should try on my next 48-hour beard, 3-pass shave.

I thought everyone did that. I've got a greedy badger that holds on to a good amount of lather.

 

[Benzadmiral]

I thought everyone did that. I've got a greedy badger that holds on to a good amount of lather.

My synthetic tuxedo does too, but I've been applying the lather from the brush without difficulty.

 

[TinyT]

One thing I don't see among all this good advice for patience is the idea that your facial skin may well adapt over time to the new DE regime. If you learn to play guitar, your fingertips on the left hand are successively tender, sore, calloused and finally smooth but tough and the pain goes away. At that point, you never have pain in the finger tips again, even if you put the instrument away for months. I wonder if there isn't an adaptation process for the face for all those starting out with the new shaving system.

That's been my experience. My shaves continue to improve as my skin improves. I also exercise a lot more now and have a better diet. I never ate unhealthily but now I take extra care with what I put in my body. It helps.

 

[PlutoViola]

When I started out with a DE it was an amazing difference. Then I started getting irritation after a while. It took me a bit to figure out, but it was allergic sensitivity to several things: alum, menthol, and witch hazel. All of these items are very common ingredients in post shave products or in soaps/creams. The tricky part was that it took time to show up. Now that I know to avoid those things I have no issues.

I've also come to love cold water shaves. I love the feel of a warm water shave, but I am more prone to irritation with warm water. I have also found that showering before a shave means more likely nicks and cuts. When I shave before the shower, no blood, no pain. Dare to try things that are not necessarily the status quo around here. If it doesn't work for you, do what does work for you.

For me, a problem with a blade is obvious real quick. Also, as has been stated, the 34c is a fine choice and I wouldnt blame the razor.

Sent from my SM-A102U using Tapatalk

 

[Bundy71]

Update: I shaved last night after letting my face recover from the last shave (Saturday night). The only changes I made were the soap (switched from TOBS to Arko) and really focused on pressure/blade angle. I don't know if it was better technique or the soap, but by far my best shave yet. Zero irritation and a DFS+, bordering on BBS save a few spots that I fought the urge to touch up.

Next step is to not get cocky on my next shave and continue focusing on pressure/blade angle. I should be getting my order from Shannon's Soap and will try that next without changing anything else.

Oh...I also learned that I may be in the minority with regard to the scent of Arko. It's a bit shocking at first when compared to other soaps that dazzle you with fragrance (e.g. TOBS), but I find it to be a pretty generic, clean smelling soap that doesn't linger very long. My wife actually said she likes it, so I have that going for me if that ends up having to be the soap of choice as I hone my skills.

Thanks again for all you help!

 

[Multum in parvo]

Update: I shaved last night after letting my face recover from the last shave (Saturday night). The only changes I made were the soap (switched from TOBS to Arko) and really focused on pressure/blade angle. I don't know if it was better technique or the soap, but by far my best shave yet. Zero irritation and a DFS+, bordering on BBS save a few spots that I fought the urge to touch up.

Next step is to not get cocky on my next shave and continue focusing on pressure/blade angle. I should be getting my order from Shannon's Soap and will try that next without changing anything else.

Oh...I also learned that I may be in the minority with regard to the scent of Arko. It's a bit shocking at first when compared to other soaps that dazzle you with fragrance (e.g. TOBS), but I find it to be a pretty generic, clean smelling soap that doesn't linger very long. My wife actually said she likes it, so I have that going for me if that ends up having to be the soap of choice as I hone my skills.

Thanks again for all you help!

Arko is a great choice for a fixed item so you can put this out of the equation of variables. If you can confidently build lather with it you can try out different blades and have a yardstick as to what works best for you.

 

[Bundy71]

Arko is a great choice for a fixed item so you can put this out of the equation of variables. If you can confidently build lather with it you can try out different blades and have a yardstick as to what works best for you.

Thanks Multum. I forgot to mention that on top of the Arko, I also focused on getting a properly hydrated lather using the Marco Method.

The fixed items I have definitely decided on are my Cube 2.0, Merkur 34C, and Nivea balm. I have a new bowl coming today (currently have a small Viking SS bowl that's way too small), so maybe I will stick with Arko for some more shaves and focus on building a great lather. In fact, maybe I should have another shave without changing anything to see if I can produce consistent results (next shave would be my third shave with Gillette Platinum blade, and I've never done three shaves with the same blade).

 

[Multum in parvo]

Thanks Multum. I forgot to mention that on top of the Arko, I also focused on getting a properly hydrated lather using the Marco Method.

The fixed items I have definitely decided on are my Cube 2.0, Merkur 34C, and Nivea balm. I have a new bowl coming today (currently have a small Viking SS bowl that's way too small), so maybe I will stick with Arko for some more shaves and focus on building a great lather. In fact, maybe I should have another shave without changing anything to see if I can produce consistent results (next shave would be my third shave with Gillette Platinum blade, and I've never done three shaves with the same blade).

For me shave 3 and 4 with a quality blade are my favorite ones. Sometimes I use them up to 6 times but more often than not I ditch them after 4.
That being said B&B has users that have the skill/skin to go for 30-40 shaves or more per blade...

 

[Benzadmiral]

. . .

Oh...I also learned that I may be in the minority with regard to the scent of Arko. It's a bit shocking at first when compared to other soaps that dazzle you with fragrance (e.g. TOBS), but I find it to be a pretty generic, clean smelling soap that doesn't linger very long. My wife actually said she likes it, so I have that going for me if that ends up having to be the soap of choice as I hone my skills.

Thanks again for all you help!

Regarding Arko, I'm right there with you. When I first opened the stick, yes, I got a whiff of something less than pleasant. I left the stick open in my bathroom, and for a day or so I could smell it. Now, though, I have to put the thing up to my nose and really sniff to get much scent at all -- very much like my Tabac stick.

The shave soap performance is dynamite.

 

[Bundy71]

Regarding Arko, I'm right there with you. When I first opened the stick, yes, I got a whiff of something less than pleasant. I left the stick open in my bathroom, and for a day or so I could smell it. Now, though, I have to put the thing up to my nose and really sniff to get much scent at all -- very much like my Tabac stick.

The shave soap performance is dynamite.

I got the puck instead of the stick, mainly because I use the Cube pre-shave and thought that + the stick would get a little messy. I considered leaving the top off the puck, but the smell after shaving was mild and clean so didn't bother. Either that or the smell destroyed my olfactory senses and I'm unwittingly walking around smelling worse than I think.

I'm pretty convinced that Arko doesn't smell bad, it just doesn't have the strong, exotic, cologne-like smell of other soaps that we all appreciate.

 

[RenoRichard]

Update: I shaved last night after letting my face recover from the last shave (Saturday night). The only changes I made were the soap (switched from TOBS to Arko) and really focused on pressure/blade angle. I don't know if it was better technique or the soap, but by far my best shave yet. Zero irritation and a DFS+, bordering on BBS save a few spots that I fought the urge to touch up.

Congrats on a good shave, @Bundy71! You're doing great. You, like many of us, likely needed a little practice to unlearn some bad habits. As many have noted, it's all about technique.

Cartridge razors are designed to be forgiving of excess pressure and used in one-pass with the grain, i.e. swiveling heads, lubrication strips, and multiple blades with little exposure. They are designed that way because many guys naturally tend to apply pressure, often more than is needed. And multiple passes are the norm with DE razors.

Your latest post in this thread indicates you may well have turned to corner to real success, and great shaves will follow. IMHO comfort dominates closeness. Your beard is going to grow back anyway. Just relax and go for consistently comfortable shaves. Perhaps contrary to some, my take is that a two-pass daily shave will build good technique for you faster. More practice with less stubble to remove=less desire to "dig in." Until you can shave irritation free for at least a week going WTG and XTG, I would avoid an ATG pass. Of course, if you get irritation then you'll need to rest your face. A step back maybe, but it will afford you an easier path forward.

Arko is a very good soap, and a good choice for a daily driver. During Arko August this year, I did find that Arko was a bit drying for me when used daily for more than a week. I do use an alcohol-based aftershave most days, so that might have contributed to the dryness, as well as our low humidity environment. I just reached for some Nivea balm, later in the day. There are so many nice product choices, it can be overwhelming.

Your razor is fine; I'd pair it with a sharp blade. If you want a tuck of Feathers, just PM me with your address and I'll mail one out.

 

[Esox]

The slant does scare me a bit, but I want to find the holy grail of efficient and smooth...is that too much to ask!!?

No sir, it is not!

That road can be long however and filled with holes. Once you get there though, it will have all been worth it.

MMOC/PTFE for its 4th shave.

WK.

Maggard Synthetic.

~100 hours since last shave. I dont think it would matter if it was around 200 hours.

Single buffing pass ATG. One clean up. The MMOC is all business and this was business as usual.

Nice comfy BBS. What more could be asked for.

The more methodical your approach to it all, the shorter the road becomes. When you have a great shave, as you have had once, try and understand which aspects made it a great shave then try to repeat the experience. In doing so you can identify the weaknesses, whatever they may be.

Each component needs to work perfectly, both with your technique and your skin type. I personally dont like altering my technique to suit a razor. I prefer the razor to suit my technique.

I personally wanted the quickest, easiest and most comfortable shave I could have. To accomplish that I needed to find and learn a particular type of razor. Through my trials I learned I needed a rigid design with little blade gap and generous blade exposure. My DE quest ended with a Fatip Grande, not the slant which I also have.

In my journal about my Grade I started testing blades to find which would allow me to shave directly ATG first pass at 48 hours growth, on my 7th shave with it on page 5 with a Feather blade. From there I tested more than 20 different blades to find the ones that would let me achieve the goal I had set out to find. Then I surpassed it, easily. I took every aspect of the Fatip I appreciated, an extremely rigid design, little blade gap and generous blade exposure of a rigid and well supported blade and increased all those aspects by moving to a GEM MMOC, which I used for the shave above.

It took me almost three years to get to that point. Its very easy to become frustrated and confused with trying new things. The best advice I can give is to learn and understand what you are using while trying to find and understand any weaknesses you might find in them. Be they razor, blade, soap or brush. Eliminate those weaknesses and your shaves will continually improve.

 

[DaveHStone]

Update: I shaved last night after letting my face recover from the last shave (Saturday night). The only changes I made were the soap (switched from TOBS to Arko) and really focused on pressure/blade angle. I don't know if it was better technique or the soap, but by far my best shave yet. Zero irritation and a DFS+, bordering on BBS save a few spots that I fought the urge to touch up.

Next step is to not get cocky on my next shave and continue focusing on pressure/blade angle. I should be getting my order from Shannon's Soap and will try that next without changing anything else.

Oh...I also learned that I may be in the minority with regard to the scent of Arko. It's a bit shocking at first when compared to other soaps that dazzle you with fragrance (e.g. TOBS), but I find it to be a pretty generic, clean smelling soap that doesn't linger very long. My wife actually said she likes it, so I have that going for me if that ends up having to be the soap of choice as I hone my skills.

Thanks again for all you help!

Congrats @Bundy71, you're making nice progress and it will get better and better! Keep it up

One thing to always remember Technique trumps Hardware, so NO - it was not the soap, but your improved technique. Be rest assured there's nothing wrong with TOBS. A few more shaves down the road and you will not need to focus/concentrate on the angle and pressure, it will become natural and intuitive.