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Just Another Newcomer With Their First Jnat

I received my first jnat this week - a 5.6 x 3.1 x 0.8 inch Nakayama Asagi Koppa from Keith on Etsy. I am very happy with the stone. The size is perfect for hand-holding, and there is something magical about the stone's feel/texture. Turns out I am on vacation at home this week, so I have lots of time to hone and play. I have now used the stone twice.

Here is the stone straight out of the box.

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For my first bout, I honed a shave-ready GD that I had previously performed a full Arkansas progression on followed by 0.5 micron diamond paste. I used the little tomo that came with the stone to raise some slurry and then spent about 20 minutes on the razor just trying to get the lay of the land - medium to light to close to zero pressure using small circles and then x-strokes. The results were not bad, but the razor was not what I will call 0.5 micron shave ready.

At this point, it was pretty clear that I was facing two challenges: 1) just gaining proficiency at honing, and 2) gaining proficiency with jnats. To this point, I had been holding the razor with two hands, using the non-dominant hand to make sure the razor was laying flat on the stone. So I spent a bunch of time practicing circles and x-strokes using the two grips used by @gary haywood in the following video, and now using one hand I can keep the blade flat on the stone through complete strokes, and feel the blade on the stone, including the nose/toe and heel. By no means perfect and there are a few spots in my strokes where I struggle to maintain this feel. But definitely progress. I have avoided using half strokes.


For today's bout, I used a second 0.5 micron shave-ready GD. I raised this slurry using a worn out 600 grit DMT card to eliminate the tomo from the equation.

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I then spent about 20 minutes using small circles followed by x-strokes in the slurry with moderate pressure gradually diluting the slurry. The good news is that I had sufficient control to be able to push the slurry from end to end across the entire length of the blade. It turned into a bit of a game - pushing slurry from end to end. Here's what things looked like after working the slurry.

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Then I gradually diluted the slurry down to all water using lighter stokes toward the finishing line, and stropped the razor on canvas then leather. The resulting edge passes the forearm hair test and HHT, and feels pretty smooth on my cheek but still not what I will call 0.5 micron sharp.

So my question is what should I focus on to increase the sharpness of the hone? Does the sharpness come from when the slurry is the thickest or later in the process? More pressure? Do I want to see any sign of metal in the worked slurry?
 
Welcome to the party, @pwheeler. Please feel free to share your experience/ask your questions. Last night I found a similar thread from a few years back and forgot to mark it. I will try to find it again.
 
Welcome to the party, @pwheeler. Please feel free to share your experience/ask your questions. Last night I found a similar thread from a few years back and forgot to mark it. I will try to find it again.
Thank you. Right now I'm going to use my Ozuku with water only to refresh already good edges. I am trying to learn from the beginning with bevel setting and using my Naniwa stones up to 12k. After that, I'm going to try the jnat and also have a blue and yellow coti. I have several ebay specials to practice on.
 
Have you shaved with this edge yet?
Don't let the HHT or FOFT tree topping results keep you from shaving with it. The magic for me in the stone I also recently picked up from Keith is the ability to be as smooth as it is while still being sharp.
It won't be clinical like a .5, .25, or .1u edge...in my experience it will actually feel sharper than it is because of the level of smooth it gains.

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I have been shaving every other day, so I won't shave with the jnat-finished razor until tomorrow evening. So far, the only progression that works for me is finishing stone > 0.5 micron diamond paste > leather, so therefore the comparison. But your point has been received, @Dilbone.
 
I have been shaving every other day, so I won't shave with the jnat-finished razor until tomorrow evening. So far, the only progression that works for me is finishing stone > 0.5 micron diamond paste > leather, so therefore the comparison. But your point has been received, @Dilbone.
If the Nakayama is anything like my Wakasa I think you'll be pleasantly surprised...again maybe not quite as sharp, but smoother in a way that makes it "feel" as sharp.
My Wakasa looks like it could be a cousin from another mine haha
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My Wakasa looks like it could be a cousin from another mine haha

Most definitely :).

Rinse the stone and razor well after you finish with the slurry. Then try following up without slurry, clear water strokes, try 20-30 to begin with. Keep the pressure light.

So I did a second round using the same razor, making a few adjustments based on @Steve56's advice and watching the last part of the following video from @Doc226, and the resulting edge feels much better than round 1.


For round 2, I tried to start wetter, apply more pressure to generate some visible swarf, keep the slurry nice and wet, and finish with lots more water. I noticed that @Doc226 generates noticeable swarf in a short amount of time. I suspect he applies more pressure and/or just has a way more efficient stroke than I have, and he points out how the slurry covers the entire bevel of the blade.

This is definitely going to require more trial and error.
 
If you already have a nice undercut of the slurry, no need to use preassure then. use less pressure while keeping the slurry wet(less preassure the better if you already have a good bevel and undercut), be careful not to use too much slurry, try to avoid suction by easing up (you definitely do not want razor stuck to the stone suction)
What do you want to accomplish on the stone? Honing out scratches or just a slight polish? Adjust the slurry accordingly. Swarf can be misleading aswell, color of the slurry, suspension of the metal particles ect.
Better to look at the edge and see what the stone is doing.
The lighter you can hit the apex consistently the sharper your edge is going to get. It is after all only loose abrasive on a flat surface.
 
What do you want to accomplish on the stone?

A comfortable edge that is sharp enough to easily mow down the tougher portions of my beard - like the hair on my chin.

I assume this translates to finishing and to some kind of consistent, random chaos of little scratches on the edge but that's just a wild *** guess. I should also add that, other than chips and gouges, I have no idea what I am seeing through my loupe. In many ways I feel like a caveman :).

I am hoping that through trial and error, patterns will emerge that will lead me to my goal.
 
This is what I think you see and feel, my wild guess 😇.
You get a comfortable shave just not close, resistance on the tougher parts. This sounds like a rounded off edge, probably caused by a thick coarse slurry. Skip the dmt card unless you want to do heavy lifting removing scratches. Keith matches the nagura with the stone, use it to get a nice fine slurry, you can have a healthy amount, just keep it wet. Keep your preassure feather light to no preassure, and at the finishing stage use less weight than the razor on the stone if you can.
Preassure kills edges, but can be useful removing scratches.
 
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+1 on water strokes
usually lighter pressure to finish. i don't go on lap count. i like to do minimal laps strop check edge back to stone if necessary.
good stropping with good technique will usually advance an edge
every stone is different, some will raise a swarf, sometimes it is not necessary, i'm more concerned with swarf at lower stages of honing.
a hand held microscope, or other magnification is you friend, study your edge throughout honing progression
Sharp is not ultimate goal. Sharp eventually will come easy. Jnat vs. synth edge are apples and oranges. Jnat being apple.... apple usually wins
 
I like doc’s approach to Jnats too. I think you’re already coming into an awareness that getting the outcome you’re looking for is an investment both in time & effort. But the process is engaging. And look, there’s a time for that diamond edge. When you don’t have a lot of time and you need the shave to be “there” on-demand then it does that. And when you’re looking for a different take on sharp there’s the world of naturals as well.
 
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I am happy to report some real progress!

I had a second session using the jnat to finish a second GD that had been stropped on 0.5 micron diamond paste. This time the edge was noticeably smoother but still not sharp enough, so I watched a video on YouTube and learned how to use my loupe and realized that the edge on the GD had two distinctive bands running parallel to the edge. I needed an edge that I understood, so I pulled out a beer bottle, and for the very first time, killed the edge and ran the following progression on the two razors in the below photo, making sure that after each stone each razor passed the (cherry) tomato test:

Beer Bottle > King 1000 > King 6000 > Nakayama Asagi > Leather

The edges on both razors are now even and smooth under the loupe, with the edge on the GD now a bit narrower than the factory edge. The GD passes the HHT. The Beau Brummel 35 seems to just fail the HHT. Both razors feel smooth on my cheek and the GD feels reasonably sharp. I will know more when I shave tomorrow.

I should also add that I learned a few things by watching the Gold Dollar videos on the below link. For each stone, I simply laid the blade flat on the stone, and played with different amounts of downward pressure and torque on the blade edge until I was able to generate visible swarf using circles and x-strokes, holding the razor with both hands or my dominant hand. If and when the swarf began to clog the stone, I re-lapped the stone. In each case, there was a sweet spot for the combination of downward pressure and torque. And once I found the sweet spot, it just didn't take that long to pass the tomato test. It felt like I was trying to shave off a razor thin slice of stone when I hit the sweet spot.

The journey continues!


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You know I wonder if you would be in a better position if you started your progression on the Shapton stones. Either the Kuromaku 1.5k to 5K or the glass series 1k-4K. I can’t help but wonder if the King combo is leaving you a bit under-honed prior to the natural.
 
Yeah, my plan has been to replace the King combo with individual stones, and the time may now be here. I am eyeing the Chosera 1k, and the Shapton HR 4k and 8k stones.
I think you would be in a fantastic position with that set up. Now me personally I really like a complete set of Mikawa Nagura for Jnats. I know there’s a lot of people that are going to vehemently disagree with that but I just cannot get to the same place in terms of absolute sharpness when I don’t use a set of them. I’m not trying to push you into buying a set or anything like that but what I am saying is the results for me have been pretty significant. And of course you still finish with Tomo...
 
Now for a lot of you out there that do something similar to Doc’s method (where you’re just basically using diamond Nagura), I believe that it just takes a lot of practice to get it dialed in. I suspect that having a way to test periodically (I.e. cherry tomato) while honing is a key to using diamond Nagura. I can get a general feel for slurry breakdown but that only gets me so far with this process. A functional test does give one an idea as to where the edge is at so you can decide on the next step.
 
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