Jordan Peterson 12 Rules for Life

Discussion in 'The Barber Shop' started by The Knize, Jul 30, 2018.

  1. The Knize

    The Knize Moderator Emeritus

    Anyone else making their way through this book and have any thoughts? (I do not want to get into anything political or religious. I do not see JP as inherently political or all that religious.) To me he seems like a public intellectual in the best of senses.

    I find him really quite good, although he writing is a bit "strident," and I would say he overgeneralizes. For an academic he seems awfully sure of himself, and at the end of the day to cite relatively few sources. Has anyone read his Maps of Meaning? My guess is that it is more academic, but involving similar topics. I may give it a try. Although it seems expensive and daunting.

    I think his advice is pretty good, and his references to science and literature rather enlightening. I like that he is coming from a largely psychological viewpoint. One could argue that all good advice is sort of obvious. But I think Peterson digs a little deeper into why good advice is hard to follow.
     
  2. He’s a complete fraud from the way he dresses to the way he speaks. Interesting for a man in his fifties to change to his wardrobe and speech in order to sell his ideas and himself as a persona. Luckily there are photos and videos of him from a few years ago. He has legions of mostly male fans that miss the “good old days”.

    There was a recent New York Times article about that did a good job at revealing his character.

    Jordan Peterson, Custodian of the Patriarchy
     
  3. Ugh.
     
  4. Doc4

    Doc4 Moderator Emeritus

    There's an audio book, read by JBP himself, which I'm working my way through. Great stuff. He tends to be seen as a "controversial" figure in mainstream media, but doesn't deserve that at all, and does tend to put a lot of thought into what he says and writes.

    He has a lot ... a lot ... of lecture material on youtube. It's fascinating stuff. With his 12 Rules you are just scratching the surface, but really useful. I think by the time he whittles all the content he wants to say down into the comparatively short text of his book, there's not much time or space left for being uncertain or going into footnotes. (It's not an "academic" book with footnotes and such, it's aimed at the general populace and the writing style is fashioned accordingly.)

    That one appears daunting ... IIRC he mentioned somewhere intending it to be daunting, to do the subject matter justice.

    I've heard that many times ... mostly from theadvice-givers I end up respecting most.
     
  5. I read the book recently. Found it interesting but then about 2/3rds of the way through started flipping the pages. I like that in this age somebody can pop up and have thought provoking ideas. It is good to rethink matters you thought were settled in your mind.
     
  6. An outstanding mind and a incredible person. His you tube lectures are brilliant. If you have time, listen to his stories about the bible. Absolutely mind blowing.

    He is however, hated by the left and those who read only the headline and not the story.

    A genuine inspiration. Those calling him a fraud or any other insult probably have am agenda or flag to wave.

    The attacks on him by the LBGTabcxyz community in particular are particularly unpleasant and anti democratic and anti humanitarian.

    Truth is a hard to sell but he doesn't let that get in his way.
     
  7. LOL. Folks who complain about agendas...sometimes have their own, yes? :)
     
  8. The Knize

    The Knize Moderator Emeritus

    Hmmmm. May be too controversial a guy to discuss after all! The NYT article does not really correlate with what Peterson says, to me. I can see counterarguments to what Peterson has to say about gender. I would say the the NYT article misrepresents a lot of what Peterson says. Peterson is pretty darn well credentialed as a psychologist, as clinical psychologist at that. Charging someone $200 for a 45 minute session, hardly seems out of line. Certainly nothing that was reportedly said to the guy on the Skype call seems off to me.

    I do not see that whatever changes Peterson may have made in his clothes or manner of speaking are at all a sign of phoniness or pandering. He is speaking on a bigger stage these days than a college classroom.

    This is not at all to say I agree with everything he says, particularly re gender. But I think a lot of his advice about how to get along is life is quite good, and quite conventional.

    <There's an audio book, read by JBP himself, which I'm working my way through. Great stuff. He tends to be seen as a "controversial" figure in mainstream media, but doesn't deserve that at all, and does tend to put a lot of thought into what he says and writes.>

    Ian, my brother from another mother as usual. When I say I am reading 12 Rules, I, of course, mean I am listening to it as an audio book. I completely agree with what you say. That said, I do not think he shys away from controversy and probably feels like it helps sell some books and fill some lecture halls.

    <He has a lot ... a lot ... of lecture material on youtube. It's fascinating stuff. With his 12 Rules you are just scratching the surface, but really useful. I think by the time he whittles all the content he wants to say down into the comparatively short text of his book, there's not much time or space left for being uncertain or going into footnotes. (It's not an "academic" book with footnotes and such, it's aimed at the general populace and the writing style is fashioned accordingly.)>

    I am all over the You Tube stuff, too. I agree, it is fascinating stuff, and covers more subject matter.

    <I've heard that many times ... mostly from the advice-givers I end up respecting most.>

    Selling water by the river, is one way of thinking about it.
     
  9. Doc4

    Doc4 Moderator Emeritus

    Check out the appearances he made on the Joe Rogan and Jocko Willink podcasts ... all of which you can find on Youtube, as well as actual podcasts. Also, he's been on the Rubin Report a few times. Hours and hours of great stuff.
     
  10. The Knize

    The Knize Moderator Emeritus

    I do not want to violate any copyright or I would post a copy of the 12 Rules here. Easy enough to find on-line. Seem pretty uncontroversial to me. Emphasis on foregoing the easy for the long term beneficial. On choosing one's friends carefully. On listening more and talking less. On not lying. On improving oneself rather than comparing oneself to others. On being supportive and forgiving of oneself.

    By the way, Peterson has described himself as a classic British liberal. I do not think the right or the left "owns" him, especially whatever those sides are in United States these days. I think Peterson gets himself into a lot trouble when he tries to explain how the feminine is associated with chaos and the male with order. This is probably true in the mythology he is talking about, but those words really have different meanings than the usual ones. Perhaps counter-intutitively, an excess of order or of chaos is not a good thing. Peterson talks about these things from a Taoist perspective. Seems fairly learned to me.
     
  11. Yep, I read it recently and very much enjoyed it. Peterson comes across as respectable to me, and I don't think he's very controversial. Not enough to invoke the vitriol that seems to get thrown his way, anyway.

    I too discovered his YouTube videos and admit I spent several hours watching...

    Regarding changing his persona...You know, when I was moving up the ranks within the private sector my wardrobe and rhetoric changed too, in keeping with my upwardly mobile-ness. (Yupplieness?) Perhaps I too am a phony. Probably. :) Anyway, nothing strikes me as 'phony' about Peterson, quite the opposite as I get the sense that he is pretty genuine. Furthermore, I am surprised that his views are sometimes seen as political.

    In summary, a great read.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2018
  12. The Knize

    The Knize Moderator Emeritus

    Yeah, Joe Rogan of all people!
     
  13. The Knize

    The Knize Moderator Emeritus

    Here is some more, dare I say, balanced material on Peterson. Readers Respond to Jordan Peterson in Aspen - The Atlantic

    I do not know why the so-called left seems to vilify him, or the so-called alt-right seem to lionize him. I would be very careful if I were on either of those "sides," which I am not. To me he is in the role of a public intellectual. His "job" is to process vast amounts of cultural information and to present his observations and conclusions. I heard a lecture a long time ago the premise of which was no one ever obtained a PhD by agreeing with everyone who went before. I expect Dr. Peterson to make forceful arguments, and for others to disagree. I do not expect to agree with him myself as to everything he says. I do expect him to make me think, hard. To me he is much like Camille Paglia, except CP does not seem nearly as active these days, and never attracted as much attention as Peterson. I suppose the latter point may be the reason she does not attract the same degree of pro and con discussion.

    Aside from the controversy, I think he provides some valuable advice, to young men in particular. And I think a lot of what he is saying is based on good psychotherapy, not something usually associated with the right wing of anything. I do not see how advice to "Treat yourself as someone you are responsible for helping" is at all politically or otherwise controversial. Perhaps "Assume that the person you are listening to might know something you don't" is, so sadly, politically controversial these days. I hope not! I truly do not think these are the kinds of things folks argue over. And if Peterson can communicate such things in a way that folks "get" it, who might not get it otherwise, I think we are all better off.

    Some of the things he has to say about gender may be too inherently political to be suitable for discussion on this forum. There is nothing wrong with that!
     
  14. I don't think he does actually comment directly on gender though?
    His point seems to be that you should not be forced by law into compelled speech just to suit contemporary (gender) politics.
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2018
  15. The Knize

    The Knize Moderator Emeritus

    That is one of many, many things he has to say about gender! Too many to list.
     
  16. BigFoot

    BigFoot Moderator

    Hey Channing did you notice it is only the lawyers that like the guy? :lol:

    @The Knize @Doc4
     
  17. Doc4

    Doc4 Moderator Emeritus

    The "left" will vilify him mainly because of his stance on Bill C-16 ... objecting to the federal government forcing people to speak in a certain way rather than however they want. Beyond that, and ultimately more importantly, he had long been a critic of social engineering and compelled behaviour of all sorts ... the kind of thing that the far left (and the far right) love to impose upon people. If you start down that road, things get worse and worse and end up in the concentration camps and the gulags, and the genocides of Mao and Pol Pot. Does he agree that 50% of a given profession should be ... must be, and we have to keep working at it until we get at or above 50% ... women? No. Does he believe that women should have the equal opportunity to run a Fortune 500 company (or whatever plum job you care to name)? Of course. But the feminists who want to keep up the social engineering until they get at or above 50% ... he tells them in no uncertain terms that they are not only wrong, but taking us down the road to that dark place where Mao & Co. lurk.

    Having listened to a lot of his material online, and to a lot of the debates in which he has participated, I can explain what has happened and why he is disliked by the left. I specifically avoid discussing the merits of each side of the debate or offering an opinion on the issues, as I am striving to avoid a political discussion. Heed this, and avoid the minefield, fellows!

    The "alt right" like him because they don't really know what he says about them. He knows what he says about their left-wing enemies, and they like that, and "my enemy's enemy is my friend", but if they paid attention to what he actually says about them, and thought things through ... they wouldn't like him at all. (But of course if they paid attention and thought things through ... they might not actually be alt-right.)

    Indeed.

    Here's a summary of his book ...



    ... and it's great stuff. Nothing overtly political (and certainly nothing about the "personal pronoun issue" that brought him into the mainstream public view a little while back).

    Indeed.

    But most of the most controversial and political of what he has to say isn't really in the core of his message but on the periphery. It's just what brings him the most media attention, so that's what the casual observer thinks about and wants to focus on.

    *sigh*
     
  18. Doc4

    Doc4 Moderator Emeritus

    :001_tt2:
     
  19. Great post
     
  20. The Knize

    The Knize Moderator Emeritus

    That is a great post, Doc4. Very articulate. I think I agree with every one of your points. You have obviously spent some time with Dr. Peterson's writings and other presentations and given a substantial amount of thought to them. I think you are right about the core of his message versus the periphery.

    I just bought the Audible version of Maps of Meaning. 30 hours. We shall see how I feel about the Professor as I get into that!

    <did you notice it is only the lawyers that like the guy?>

    Good catch, Scott! Very clever. But Ian and I frequency engage in some lengthy back and forths on some thing or other that we essentially completely agree about. Maybe lawyers just like to talk!

    My wife, who is a PhD clinical psychologist, ironically perhaps, did not at all like the excerpt from the 12 Rules I had her listen to. (I think she thinks what she heard was too strident, too unqualified, too bereft of the asserted bases for whatever Peterson was saying. But I think that is more the nature of the particular book than say, the lecture style of this particular professor.) I say ironically, because I suspect Dr. Peterson was a good psychotherapist and as far as I can tell his references to folks like Carl Jung and what I would consider psychotheraputic concepts are spot on. She would probably like Maps of Meaning better.
     

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