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I've entered "The Church of Straights"

You said you "started with the lower grits". What do you have now in that regard?

I already owned a Boker 1K for kitchen knives. I've added a Shapton Glass 2K. Then it is a Naniwa 5K, or a JNat or Coticule, with a Black Shadow for finishing. I'm still debating about adding a Naniwa 8K, or just buying a better coti. :p
 
I have tried a few different options. My advice is to hone with Shapton glass stones (They are not glass, but are backed with glass). They are very good stones and it is easy to get a good result. I usually take an edge to Shapton 12k or 16k. Then I back it down with a jnat (japanese natural stone) for comfort.

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I have tried a few different options. My advice is to hone with Shapton glass stones (They are not glass, but are backed with glass). They are very good stones and it is easy to get a good result. I usually take an edge to Shapton 12k or 16k. Then I back it down with a jnat (japanese natural stone) for comfort.

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I'm definitely digging Shapton glass. They look awesome and from all I read, work great. I asked earlier if anyone owens a Shapton lapping plate? Too priceyif you ask me but was told you can just use a lower grit like a 400 to keep a 500 flat. I mention this as I was thinking a Shapton 500 for bevel setting.

How many Shaptons do you have? What levels do you hit? Looks like you have at least a 12k and 16k.
 

Steve56

Ask me about shaving naked!
I asked earlier if anyone owens a Shapton lapping plate?

I missed that. I have the diamond lapping plate, bought used off Yahoo Japan.

Pros:

- it’s larger than Atomas and DMTs, that big deck is nice
- the pattern means that it absolutely does not stick to the stone and it channels lapping mud off like nothing else
- it won’t rust or corrode because it isn’t metal
- the plastic sides/bottom are rugged and protective
- it stacks on the stone holder, which is probably the best stone holder there is

Cons

- the price is the biggest downside
- you can’t use it for removing metal on a razor or knife because of the surface pattern

It isn’t worth it, but for lapping stones it is better than the alternatives, but not $200 or more better than an Atoma. I’ve used mine a good bit and it does not seem to ‘mellow’ like an Atoma plate, this is both good and bad. It retains it’s cutting speed but doesn’t get finer with wear, at least not like Atomas. I use a worn Atoma 600 to finish my razor hones after lapping, the Shapton is coarser.

I put mine in the sink with a light stream of water hitting the end and lap stones face down on the plate. You can lap until the cows come home and never have to rinse slurry and the large size is luxurious.

All in all, if push came to shove I might buy another one but I’d darn sure look for a sale.
 
I got one myself last year when I was buying a whole set of the glass stones.
I like it more than the Atoma for all the reasons Steve mentioned above and after that I switch to a well used 1200 Atoma or sometimes a 1k WD sanding paper.
 
I missed that. I have the diamond lapping plate, bought used off Yahoo Japan.

Pros:

- it’s larger than Atomas and DMTs, that big deck is nice
- the pattern means that it absolutely does not stick to the stone and it channels lapping mud off like nothing else
- it won’t rust or corrode because it isn’t metal
- the plastic sides/bottom are rugged and protective
- it stacks on the stone holder, which is probably the best stone holder there is

Cons

- the price is the biggest downside
- you can’t use it for removing metal on a razor or knife because of the surface pattern

It isn’t worth it, but for lapping stones it is better than the alternatives, but not $200 or more better than an Atoma. I’ve used mine a good bit and it does not seem to ‘mellow’ like an Atoma plate, this is both good and bad. It retains it’s cutting speed but doesn’t get finer with wear, at least not like Atomas. I use a worn Atoma 600 to finish my razor hones after lapping, the Shapton is coarser.

I put mine in the sink with a light stream of water hitting the end and lap stones face down on the plate. You can lap until the cows come home and never have to rinse slurry and the large size is luxurious.

All in all, if push came to shove I might buy another one but I’d darn sure look for a sale.
Right on! That's good insight. Thank you.

It's too bad Shapton doesn't recognize they could really own this market in this segment if they dropped the price some. Either way I've heard an Atoma 400 is really good for lapping stones. I was thinking I would ultimately go that route.
 
I got one myself last year when I was buying a whole set of the glass stones.
I like it more than the Atoma for all the reasons Steve mentioned above and after that I switch to a well used 1200 Atoma or sometimes a 1k WD sanding paper.
So, you do a two-stage progression for finishing your stones?
 

Steve56

Ask me about shaving naked!
Right on! That's good insight. Thank you.

It's too bad Shapton doesn't recognize they could really own this market in this segment if they dropped the price some. Either way I've heard an Atoma 400 is really good for lapping stones. I was thinking I would ultimately go that route.

The Glass Stone line is for export, they don’t sell the line in Japan because of limited production capacity, so they say.

The number of grits/stages that you use on a particular stone depend on what the stone is and how much ‘love’ it needs. A badly dished hard Ark is going to need multiple stages of SiC and sandpaper + burnishing to get it to razor grade.

A fairly soft JNat that just needs periodic maintenance, maybe the Shapton or 400 Atoma then the mellow 600 Atoma.

The Atoma plate’s character depends on how much they have been used; my mellow 600 makes a better end finish than my not-so-mellow 1200, but that will change when the 1200 gets mellowed out.
 
Late to the party. Not sure if and what you have done to date.

I would clean up two of the razors using wet/dry sandpaper with a wine cork and metal polish (I use Mothers). Then send one to @Doc226 for a proper edge, and hone the second yourself - assuming you are still in this for the long haul.

For stones, I would start with 1k, 3k/4k and 8k synthetic stones from Naniwa or Shapton. I am currently use Shapton HR stones and loving them.

For a finisher, I would get a Naniwa Super Stone 12k (20 mm version) or a Dan's hard black or hard translucent. There is a large online knife retailer in VA that sells a Dan's 6 x 2 x 1/2 hard black for less than $60. These finishing stones are readily available and consistent. There are other great natural finishing stones, but they are less readily available and there is variation between stones.

For lapping, I started with wet/dry sandpaper on a marble slab. Works but requires some effort. I next bought a cheap Chinese 400/1000 diamond plate for about $20. Works quite well. I would like to get an Atoma 400 and 1200 but they are pricey.
 
I know you really want to dismiss lapping films out of hand, but I think it's a big mistake:

For $30 in lapping films you will learn more and answer more questions you don't even realize you have than you can know.

It's paying for lessons before you buy the whole car, and inexpensive lessons at that. Especially considering you haven't even shaved with a straight razor yet if I understand correctly?

You have a ton of learning, I think you should take the cheapest entry to all that learning, then after you know a lot more from doing so, you'll be able to save yourself easily the initial cost by making more informed investment as well as being more confident in a variety of things.
 

Slash McCoy

I freehand dog rockets
I know you really want to dismiss lapping films out of hand, but I think it's a big mistake:

For $30 in lapping films you will learn more and answer more questions you don't even realize you have than you can know.

It's paying for lessons before you buy the whole car, and inexpensive lessons at that. Especially considering you haven't even shaved with a straight razor yet if I understand correctly?

You have a ton of learning, I think you should take the cheapest entry to all that learning, then after you know a lot more from doing so, you'll be able to save yourself easily the initial cost by making more informed investment as well as being more confident in a variety of things.
Indeed. With the RIGHT film, and the RIGHT plate, film takes a lot of uncertainty out of the results, giving consistency and excellent results. Without the distraction of lapping the stones, honing becomes simpler. Stones right out of the box need lapping, period. They need, for best results, to be lapped on a demonstrably flat surface that is longer and wider than the stone being lapped. Anything less is a compromise, however small that compromise might be. It is a mistake to believe that a new stone is flat. Maybe it IS flat, but scepticism usually equals realism.

Many newbies have found lapping film to really suck, or at best, to be no better than stones at delivering precision and consistency in the edge. Generally this is from using things sold as "lapping paper", "polishing film", etc, rather than L A P P I N G F I L M . Another mistake frequently made is buying small bits or pieces of film instead of whole sheets. Another, buying sticky back or PSA film, instead of clean back. Then there is the plate that the film rests on. If it isn't flat and of sufficient size, and cannot be held in hand, the results will be suspect and the usage inconvenient. The lapping film thread should clear that up. Currently, I use a plate 1.5" thick, 3" x 12", cast acrylic, from TAP Plastics. It keeps my off hand fingertips down clear of the honing plane. I cut my film into thirds, longways. It sticks nicely with just water and a credit card for a squeegee. It removes easily with zero residue. The plate cannot wear. It is essentially unbreakable. It does not flex and probably cannot warp unless I leave it out in the sun for a month. It is not expensive, for something that will last forever. Film is not expensive, if sourced carefully. You get three or maybe four pieces from one sheet. A piece should hone a dozen or more razors.

The only drawback with film versus high quality stones is that the edge can be TOO precise for some users. One man's sharp is another man's harsh. A film edge is easily softened with a half dozen laps on a Jnat and a very thin, well worked slurry. Or it can be taken to the three stage balsa progression for additional sharpness and improved comfort. Or the pico-paper trick can be used for a final half dozen extremely light and short laps at the finish. It is short-sighted to dismiss film so easily, and no, I do not sell lapping film. No dog in that fight. Just passing on what I consider valuable information and opinions made through long use of both film and stones, which I also use.
 
@CpnStumpy @Slash McCoy

I'm my post yesterday (#35) I said...

"I plan on doing this (honing) thing for the long haul so things like lapping film don't really appeal to me. I plan on honing multiple straights from vintage (obviously) to cheap moderns. Pricey moderns/customs are a pipe dream now, but I want to believe I'll treat myself to some in year to come. I'm located in the United States and am on the west coast.

So, with all that said I need your help is game planning on what to get and in a what (loose) order."

By no means do I intend to go buy a bunch of stones without knowing what I'm doing. That would be a fools errand. As I said, I'm asking for help in forming a game plan.

I've given a lot of thought to what you've said and I think I will go ahead with some lapping film first. I was mistakenly under the impression that the film didn't last very long. That it would only be useful for a few razors or so.

Without a doubt I will need some stones, but seeing as I don't want to willy-nilly go picking them up, I'm going to take my time. The only pressure I feel in regards to buying some stones is that holiday sales are not to far off, so I'd like to be as knowledgeable/prepared as I can be to hopefully score some deals on what I believe will be necessities in the long run.

As you all know the price of quality stones adds up. The need to maintain those stones in and of itself brings additional cost. I'm trying to minimize costly mistakes by leveraging the collective knowledge found here on B&B. So I thank you all for your opinions and perspectives.

I had saved some 2x2x1" acrylic blocks while scouting materials but will most certainly check out the 3x12x1.5" blocks mentioned. That seems like a much better size. With this said, what progression do you suggest going with if I'm going to restore some vintage razors? I see 3M has everything from 600, 1250, 2000, 3200, 7000, 25k too 50k. I'm sure I've missed some in between but these are the ones I've found and saved so far.

As far as finishing goes, I'm still learning towards going with a 12k Naniwa. Don't press me too hard on this as it's just what my gut is telling me to do. Nothings set in stone as of yet though. Pun intended. 😉

Oh and to answer your question @rbscebu, I am not yet a regular straight razor shaver. Once I get the needed gear to hone and maintain a shave ready edge, I will be. 😎

Again, suggestions and opinions are welcome from all.

Thanks guys!
 

rbscebu

Girls call me Makaluod
I think that you won't regret your lapping film decision. It's a great way to get a good grounding in SR honing. SR honing is nothing like honing a knife. With three pieces per sheet, a set of lapping film sheets should last you for 30 or much more SR honings. With a set of diamond pasted balsa strops (and baring physical damage) each SR should only need honing once in its life.

Don't forget to read the SR shaving instructions, even if you are not a beginner. Pay particular attention to the stropping section. Many new to a truly shave-ready edge, have ruined that edge with improper stropping.

A 1½" thick piece of acrylic is probably the maximum thickness that you would need. A ¾" thick piece is about the minimum that is acceptable. I find about 1" ideal for me to protect my delicate manicure.

I very strongly recommend that you send one of your SRs out to be professionally honed. Without one properly honed, you will never know if you have achieved your aim. Then shave with that SR daily for at least a few weeks so that you know what a truly shave-ready edge is all about. A list of some known persons who can give you a truly shave-ready edge can be found here in the B&B Wiki.
 

rbscebu

Girls call me Makaluod
Once you have achieved consistent perfect results with lapping films (and preferably diamond pasted balsa strops) then and only then venture into synthetic and natural whetstones. That will save you a small (or larger) fortune in the long-term.
 

rbscebu

Girls call me Makaluod
If you have a choice in which lapping films to buy, from your list get 600, 1250, 3200, 7k and 25k. That is all you should need. The 600 would only be used if you need to remove a lot of steel before setting a bevel on the 1250. 3200 and 7k would be used for bevel polishing and the 25k for finishing.

If wanted, you can go from the 25k to diamond pasted balsa; 0.5μm (50k), 0.25μm (100k) and 0.1μm (200k). That should give you the ultimate edge, although some find that edge a bit too "crisp" for their shaving technique.
 

Steve56

Ask me about shaving naked!
To add to post #45, the Shapton DLP is on sale t CKTG for $275, which is a respectable discount. And yes, even so, it’s still pricey.
 
I'll chime in with a couple details here after recommending to start with lapping films.

I have heard no one unhappy with their Naniwa 12k, people are welcome to speak up if they have one and don't like it, but I've never read that commentary.

I have read a number of people complain that something was changed about the shapton 12k, and it seems a much lower grit now. Please someone correct me if they have other feedback on it, I'm merely relaying something I've read several times.

I've read many times the Norton 4k/8k stone isn't as high grit as advertised. Largely the 8k side is recognized as closer to 5-6k - a largely appreciated stone regardless, and people tend to comment on liking that 8k side more than the *very thirsty* 4k side, which is gritty.

You absolutely need a flattening stone, period.

Flattening a hard ark is best done with some grit powder, not a flattening stone.

Very little is true about taping spines, other than trying to make any statement about it and claiming it's true, will get you into an argument with someone.

I have read zero negative comments on any shapton product other than their 12k, for all other stones I've only heard people claim they're very happy with them. Please speak up anyone who has one and hates it.

I am personally very happy with my naniwa progression, and my Norton 8k but I have nothing else to compare, and my personal experience is anecdotal so I try to lean on experiences I've read others state.

Lapping films to start will be completely worth the price of admission to learn about all this.

Seriously mail off for your first edge though
 
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