It's not about the razor

[JPO]

You’re comparing apples and oranges. Years ago there was a contest between Doc and Seraphim.
Doc had a Ti. Seraphim had a Gold dollar.
Doc kept stopping and shaving and seraphim lost his edge.

Give Doc a GD and he wouldn’t have gotten as many shaves as he did with. TI. Give Seraphim a TI and using his “ inferior” lapping film and he would have matched Doc stroke for stroke. Only makes sense if you take a minute to think about it
I have a kitchen knife with a very thin blade. I never honed it over 5 years. Just run it over a steel. Other knives I have with thicker blades (GD’s) have to have the bevels reset quite often.
It has nothing to do with supposed “skulduggery” honing on magical J-nats as it does with the thickness of the blade.
Other comparisons are just a waste
Of time.

I do not think we disagree here.

Saying 60-80 shaves off a German razor says what? A full hollow , half hollow. 3/4 hollow a wedge?
This tells me nothing. Who can even justify this assessment ? Means very little.
Saying German razor means nothing.

I agree, saying a German razor might not mean much. I only have a few from Boker, Dovo and Ralf Aust. So my sample size is quite small. Regarding grind. I do not think a heavy grind gives better edge retention then a full hollow. A bevel is a bevel. The steel is not able to hold a more acute bevel angle by choosing a different grind. I have a few extra hollow ground razors. These require a different shaving technique then a big heavy blade, but the edge retention is not different.

The average attention span on social media platforms is quite short. This will result in allot of simplified statements.
All these subjects could be broken down in detail and something could probably be gained by doing so.

Edge retention difference from a JNAT edge compared to an edge produced with a "fixed" abrasive, like lapping film can be studied and/or discussed. I am not saying i have the answers. If the collective knowledge from different people from different backgrounds can be used in a constructive way, this type of platform can be useful.

I probably lost 80% of the readers after the first paragraph It is just shaving!

 

[Doc226]

Hello legion my friend.

That “ contest” has driven me crazy for years. Sorry. But it was not a fair comparison .
Can’t believe Seraphim didn’t catch it for the nonsense it was.

Long time no see Mark

As Steve said, the edge comparison was 4 GD, two on JNATs, 2 On films, they were sent to two users and they compared the edges.

the 130+ shave was off a vintage TI

I've had about the same from filis, BB and many others, I rarely hone my own blades

 

[mycarver]

I do not think we disagree here.

I agree, saying a German razor might not mean much. I only have a few from Boker, Dovo and Ralf Aust. So my sample size is quite small. Regarding grind. I do not think a heavy grind gives better edge retention then a full hollow. A bevel is a bevel. The steel is not able to hold a more acute bevel angle by choosing a different grind. I have a few extra hollow ground razors. These require a different shaving technique then a big heavy blade, but the edge retention is not different.

The average attention span on social media platforms is quite short. This will result in allot of simplified statements.
All these subjects could be broken down in detail and something could probably be gained by doing so.

Edge retention difference from a JNAT edge compared to an edge produced with a "fixed" abrasive, like lapping film can be studied and/or discussed. I am not saying i have the answers. If the collective knowledge from different people from different backgrounds can be used in a constructive way, this type of platform can be useful.

I probably lost 80% of the readers after the first paragraph It is just shaving!

Umm, you put an edge on a razor from a stone vs. one from film and there’s a difference in “edge retention?”
What , the steel knows how the bevel was set and magically remembers how it was honed and the steel will last longer if the angles were cut with a stone or lapping film? Is that what you’re proposing? Like you said. An angle is an angle.

Put an edge on a piece of steel with a stone, a file, a chunk of concrete or lapping film and the steel won’t last longer or shorter however it was done. No need to study it.
A bevel is a bevel.
The rest is nonsense.

And yes. A full hollow will have a longer lasting edge than say a wedge. Simple physics. A TI will outlast a GD. All my razors will prove that . My sample, around 500 razors and about twice that I’ve restored.
Doesn’t mean I’m right it’s only what I’ve seen.

Your claim of putting say a 18 degree angle on a razor with a stone will outlast an 18 degree angle set with film is superior is worth discussing totally ignores metals and their ability to remember how they were ground.
This isn’t worthy of discussion.

 

[JPO]

Put an edge on a piece of steel with a stone, a file, a chunk of concrete or lapping film and the steel won’t last longer or shorter however it was done. No need to study it.
A bevel is a bevel.
The rest is nonsense.

This has been studied. just Google

Grit, Scratches and Sub-Surface Damage – Part 1​

i do not think he would agree this is nonsense.

The effect on the steel below the visible striation will depend on the abrasive that was used. The steel might not have as you call it memory. However, you will have a strain hardening effect, which will have an effect on the fracture toughness, which again effects edge retention.

And yes. A full hollow will have a longer lasting edge than say a wedge. Simple physics.

Can you enlighten me of the simple physics here. I have spent quite a few years working with metal fatigue, and fracture mechanics, and to me this is not as simple. If the bevel is considered as a cantilever beam, and the grind effects the support condition of that beam, the hollow grind would allow more flex, and distribute the force better. However, it is not that simple.

Your claim of putting say a 18 degree angle on a razor with a stone will outlast an 18 degree angle set with film is superior is worth discussing totally ignores metals and their ability to remember how they were ground.
This isn’t worthy of discussion.

The shape of the striations left from different abrasives effects what we call crack tip opening radius in fracture mechanics. It is one of the most important factors in metal fatigue, in addition to the strain hardening that is in the parent metal and the resulting stress concentration in the start of a crack. The striations are just cracks. If you are able to round off the striations you get a more durable edge.
"This isn't worthy of discussion"
I think we can agree that we disagree on this topic. There might be something to be learned if you look hard enough.

It is just shaving, right

 

[Dobric]

I heard Gold Dollar are good to practice hoaning
They are good enough quality and cheap enough so you don't worry about ruining it
Is that true?

 

[Eastcoast30]

Going back to the start of this topic:

It is definitely not about the razor. The "best" razor in the world won't do you any good if you don't know how to shave, strop, touch up and store your razor. But a skilled person can probably shave well with any razor you provide him.

 

[Titleist]

I heard Gold Dollar are good to practice hoaning
They are good enough quality and cheap enough so you don't worry about ruining it
Is that true?

The Gold Dollar has a following all its own. I personally cut my teeth learning how to hone on vintage straight razors from Germany and France.

Many here love to work on Gold Dollars and we have some truly gifted artisans here who can and have turned a Gold Dollar straight into a work of beauty and art. I have neither the patience nor the skillset that many here have to work with them.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Yea, pass on the Chinese razors. Learn on a quality Vintage razors. You can buy them for about the same price, you’re not looking for lookers, (although they are out there), just one that is not rusted, pitted, warped or with massive spine wear. It will be much easier to learn to hone on a well ground razor.

Once you have mastered honing, If you feel the need, you can buy a Chinese razor kit, (Gold Dollar or ilk) and learn how to repair it so you can hone it. They can be made to shave, but really there are so many great vintage razors in the wild, why?

Read most any honing thread involving a Gold Dollar and you can taste the frustration.

 

[Eastcoast30]

Any steel can be honed razor sharp - well not any steel but most. The key is, how long they will hold the edge? Some razors made with poor quality steel will lose their edge in the middle of a shave, while my quality razors will hold an edge for months with only stropping. Check with @rbscebu for edge retention on the GD and other similar razors. He has much experience with these. I suspect the the GDs will need touch-up after each shave or so.

 

[rbscebu]

.... Check with @rbscebu for edge retention on the GD and other similar razors. He has much experience with these. I suspect the the GDs will need touch-up after each shave or so.

My shaving experience with Gold Dollars has mostly been with their W59 model which I really enjoy shaving with. @Slash McCoy is the one with the GD knowledge.

Since discovering diamond pasted balsa, I found that I like a fresh edge with each and every shave, irrespective of razor type; vintage, high-end or cheap. Hence I maintain on pasted balsa (or Cnat) after each shave.

I did once see how a Titan ACRM-2 T.H.60 would last without any maintenance, not even stropping on clean leather. I found that there was only just the slightest edge deterioration after a couple of shaves and then no noticeable deterioration over at least the next 20 or so shaves.

 

[CpnStumpy]

I've been using a straight long enough to be completely comfortable with whatever straight you give me. I have in previous times dry shaved on occasion out of laziness and being in a hurry with the Dovo I used for so long, even allowing to dull and continuing to use it, because, did I mention laziness?

Now I've got the stones and restored a good hand full of blades and honed more and grown comfortable turning a blade into shave ready.

I feel inclined to say it's absolutely about the blade. I'm comfortable enough handling the edge to work with whatever I'm handed, but you're crazy if you think I don't strongly and sincerely get a better, smoother, easier and nicer shave from some vs others.

I love a 6/8+ hollow or extra hollow. A wedgier grind I've found doesn't give me such a smooth comfortable shave (for me). I like a point with a precise toe so I can easily pluck precise spots with it.

Blade characteristics matter.

I have found some blades significantly easier to bevel set and hone than others, and the keenness of said edge for some stay with ease. What a difference that makes!

The blade doesn't matter seems like poppycock to me. I've used a dull one enough because I didn't want to mail *again* (I am excessively lazy) before I bought the stones, keenness obviously matters, other traits matter, and if you're saying all blades can be made so keen - maybe but ******* why? Chances are some will be problematic to whatever degree and the results of the shave are in my experienced opinion very distinct when these variables are all at play from a blade, regardless of how capable the shaver is.