Is there any difference betwen razors with same blanks?

[Guest2023]

After trying 10 or more vintage razors, I've decided to purchase modern razors only.

I love vintage ones when it comes to safety razors but I prefer modern ones to vintage SR. I don't know why. It is not superior or something.

Just my personal taste.


But one thing comes to my mind. I already have a Dovo razor. and I've read most modern SR use blade blanks from Solingen, which I guess will be no different from Dovo.

Then, do they shave similarly after it gets dull and honed the same way if all elements affecting shaving quality, like weight distribution, blade width, grind type(wedge or hollow) are about the same ?

If they do, I guess I would better choose Thiers Issard, Portland or other razor companies that use different blanks because I don't plan to purchase many.


Hope to hear your more experienced opinion.

Thanks

 

[rbscebu]

If all elements that affect the shave quality (you left out profile shape, honing, mass and heat treatment) then yes, they would shave about the same.

Don't forget that every gentleman of (at least modest) mean should own a matching seven-day set of straight razors. I had five sets of modern SR's, now only two, both from Japanese steel blanks but different steels. I'm now slowly working on putting together a new (vintage) third set.

 

[Guest2023]

If all elements that affect the shave quality (you left out profile shape, honing, mass and heat treatment) then yes, they would shave about the same.

Don't forget that every gentleman of (at least modest) mean should own a matching seven-day set of straight razors. I had five sets of modern SR's, now only two, both from Japanese steel blanks but different steels. I'm now slowly working on putting together a new (vintage) third set.

Thanks for your opinion.

Does heat treatment make big enough a difference? I guess it is the two main differentiating element including honing.

 

[rbscebu]

Thanks for your opinion.

Does heat treatment make big enough a difference? I guess it is the two main differentiating element including grind.

Heat treatment makes a big difference. It affects particularly the "springiness" of the blade, ease (or difficulty) in honing and the edge retention.

If heat treatment is not very similar in two theoretically identical SR's, you will notice the difference when shaving. You will find this out when you get into matching seven-day sets.

 

[Guest2023]

Heat treatment makes a big difference. It affects particularly the "springiness" of the blade, ease (or difficulty) in honing and the edge retention.

If heat treatment is not very similar in two theoretically identical SR's, you will notice the difference when shaving. You will find this out when you get into matching seven-day sets.

Okay. Then if a razor uses its own heat treatment(I guess Koraat does ) , is it safe to guess that its shaving quality is different from other razors who use the same blank? right?

 

[Slash McCoy]

After trying 10 or more vintage razors, I've decided to purchase modern razors only.

I love vintage ones when it comes to safety razors but I prefer modern ones to vintage SR. I don't know why. It is not superior or something.

Just my personal taste.


But one thing comes to my mind. I already have a Dovo razor. and I've read most modern SR use blade blanks from Solingen, which I guess will be no different from Dovo.

Then, do they shave similarly after it gets dull and honed the same way if all elements affecting shaving quality, like weight distribution, blade width, grind type(wedge or hollow) are about the same ?

If they do, I guess I would better choose Thiers Issard, Portland or other razor companies that use different blanks because I don't plan to purchase many.


Hope to hear your more experienced opinion.

Thanks

It is very common for European manufacturers to source forged blanks from another company and often many makers do indeed use blanks that are also used by many others. It's all about economy of scale in an industry that is a shadow of what it once was. Buying blanks in bulk could mean the difference between being forced to charge $300 for a finished razor and being able to charge $150 for the same razor.

Heat treating and tempering are wild cards. Except when they are not. Most major players will have very similar hardness profiles in the finished razor. What works well, works well, and what doesn't work well simply isn't used by any serious maker. Nobody has a magic bullet. Quench in oil, quench in lead, quench in mercury, quench in brine, cryo quench, properly done, all can give a good end result. Techniques that don't work as well for a particular alloy are obviously not used for that alloy by any successful company, or they would not be successful. BTW heat treating is heating the steel above a certain critical temperature and then quickly cooling it, which changes and locks in a particular structure in the steel. The goal is primarily a certain level of hardness, which will almost invariably be much harder than what is desirable in actual use. Tempering is heating the hardened razor to a much lower temperature to toughen the steel, removing some hardness in favor of a bit of springyness. The tempering does not make the steel harder. It makes it less brittle. This is commonly misunderstood by the layman.

I would not be too quick to lump Portland Razor Company with the better known European makers. Their products are somewhat controversial in some circles. This is almost to be expected from a new company (relative to the more established companies with centuries of history, or individual makers trained by the masters of the art.) Do a thorough search on PRC and you will find that while there are some happy owners, many buyers have been disappointed. Very likely some day their quality will stabilize. Or maybe not. But my take on it is that IF they now use QUALITY Solingen blanks, it would be a step in the right direction for a change. YMMV as I do not own one of their razors and I have no reason to buy one. I need to sell a few pounds of razors before buying a new expensive one. Well, except for the Carre I bought a few days ago LOL!

You can easily try your hand at HT and tempering. There are currently a lot of Herder blanks floating around cheap, and you can construct a forge quite easily using charcoal or gas. Youtube is your friend. Or get two. Treat one, leave the other alone, then do finish grinding and honing and mount some scales, and see how they perform. Or three. One gets full HT and tempering, one only HT and no tempering, and one gets nothing at all. Same steel, same primary grind, different final product. But obviously if you bought 100 of them to complete and then sell, you would quickly determine the best treatment profile to give consistent high quality to the finished razor, and follow that regimen. So your finished Herder blade would be pretty much identical to one finished by another maker who also strives for the best final characteristics.

Or you could decide that you know better than anyone else, and you could source your own blank supplier offering better prices, or forge your own using your own idea of what is the best razor steel, or some inexpensive mystery steel, and devise your own treatment that is only very loosely based on industry standards or realistic testing and comparison. Maybe you end up with a superior razor, but probably not. There really isn't anything "new" going on in mainstream razor production. Or just as bad, you might THINK you are doing everything just like the big players, just better, and you charge more. Or you think that you can do a better job than the big brands, so you charge more. A few buyers bite because your prices are higher and so surely your razors must be superior. Others stay away in droves and the thundering sound you hear is buyers' feet trampling and stampling right past your razors in favor of better choices. There, sitting in the dust cloud raised by that thundering herd, are your buyers, most crying with buyer's remorse, with a few blissfully happy ones blathering on about how your razor is a divinely inspired work of art and instrument of pogonotomical perfection. Hurry, sell them some more before they realize that the Emperor's New Clothes aren't really there.

 

[Gamma]

Two different razors from one company can seem to be identical in all regards, or not. Two razors from two different companies can seem to be identical in all regards, or not.
Two of the same razors from the same maker can seem to be different, or identical in all regards.
Any blade that is hand ground can have a slight nuance of a difference from its 'twin' that might translate to a felt difference.
Two different people may/can/will have two different opinions about all of the above.

 

[Guest2023]

It is very common for European manufacturers to source forged blanks from another company and often many makers do indeed use blanks that are also used by many others. It's all about economy of scale in an industry that is a shadow of what it once was. Buying blanks in bulk could mean the difference between being forced to charge $300 for a finished razor and being able to charge $150 for the same razor.

Heat treating and tempering are wild cards. Except when they are not. Most major players will have very similar hardness profiles in the finished razor. What works well, works well, and what doesn't work well simply isn't used by any serious maker. Nobody has a magic bullet. Quench in oil, quench in lead, quench in mercury, quench in brine, cryo quench, properly done, all can give a good end result. Techniques that don't work as well for a particular alloy are obviously not used for that alloy by any successful company, or they would not be successful. BTW heat treating is heating the steel above a certain critical temperature and then quickly cooling it, which changes and locks in a particular structure in the steel. The goal is primarily a certain level of hardness, which will almost invariably be much harder than what is desirable in actual use. Tempering is heating the hardened razor to a much lower temperature to toughen the steel, removing some hardness in favor of a bit of springyness. The tempering does not make the steel harder. It makes it less brittle. This is commonly misunderstood by the layman.

I would not be too quick to lump Portland Razor Company with the better known European makers. Their products are somewhat controversial in some circles. This is almost to be expected from a new company (relative to the more established companies with centuries of history, or individual makers trained by the masters of the art.) Do a thorough search on PRC and you will find that while there are some happy owners, many buyers have been disappointed. Very likely some day their quality will stabilize. Or maybe not. But my take on it is that IF they now use QUALITY Solingen blanks, it would be a step in the right direction for a change. YMMV as I do not own one of their razors and I have no reason to buy one. I need to sell a few pounds of razors before buying a new expensive one. Well, except for the Carre I bought a few days ago LOL!

You can easily try your hand at HT and tempering. There are currently a lot of Herder blanks floating around cheap, and you can construct a forge quite easily using charcoal or gas. Youtube is your friend. Or get two. Treat one, leave the other alone, then do finish grinding and honing and mount some scales, and see how they perform. Or three. One gets full HT and tempering, one only HT and no tempering, and one gets nothing at all. Same steel, same primary grind, different final product. But obviously if you bought 100 of them to complete and then sell, you would quickly determine the best treatment profile to give consistent high quality to the finished razor, and follow that regimen. So your finished Herder blade would be pretty much identical to one finished by another maker who also strives for the best final characteristics.

Or you could decide that you know better than anyone else, and you could source your own blank supplier offering better prices, or forge your own using your own idea of what is the best razor steel, or some inexpensive mystery steel, and devise your own treatment that is only very loosely based on industry standards or realistic testing and comparison. Maybe you end up with a superior razor, but probably not. There really isn't anything "new" going on in mainstream razor production. Or just as bad, you might THINK you are doing everything just like the big players, just better, and you charge more. Or you think that you can do a better job than the big brands, so you charge more. A few buyers bite because your prices are higher and so surely your razors must be superior. Others stay away in droves and the thundering sound you hear is buyers' feet trampling and stampling right past your razors in favor of better choices. There, sitting in the dust cloud raised by that thundering herd, are your buyers, most crying with buyer's remorse, with a few blissfully happy ones blathering on about how your razor is a divinely inspired work of art and instrument of pogonotomical perfection. Hurry, sell them some more before they realize that the Emperor's New Clothes aren't really there.

Thanks for the detailed opinion! So you are saying tempering and heating don't make a big difference between makers because they are too similar? right?

 

[Guest2023]

Two different razors from one company can seem to be identical in all regards, or not. Two razors from two different companies can seem to be identical in all regards, or not.
Two of the same razors from the same maker can seem to be different, or identical in all regards.
Any blade that is hand ground can have a slight nuance of a difference from its 'twin' that might translate to a felt difference.
Two different people may/can/will have two different opinions about all of the above.

Thanks for your opinion. It's like saying 'Every Straight razor is different. Go find your own favorite.' Some may feel it is straight razor's specific characteristic and charm. Others may think it as lack of consistency. I'm leaning toward the latter. After all, it is just an industrial product, unlike badger hair which has similar irregularity and is natural product

 

[Slash McCoy]

Thanks for the detailed opinion! So you are saying tempering and heating don't make a big difference between makers because they are too similar? right?

Generally they will be similar enough to not make significant difference. There are of course those who will tell you that just by shaving with the razor or just by being in the same room with it or by sniffing the coffin they can tell you what day of the week the razor was ground, and what sort of oven used for tempering and whether it was a sunny day or cloudy and whether the guy who did final polishing was right handed or left handed, and whether they guy who peened the scales on the razor was liberal or conservative. In the big scheme of things, the big names in the business use mostly conventional methods that get very similar results. Those who get inferior results don't get a lot of business. If you could tell by shaving with a razor that someone used an inferior HT regimen, would YOU buy another from the same guy?

Not saying there is zero difference. Of course not. How discerning are you, or how discerning do you think you are? But mostly, a good razor is a good razor, and among the big brands, the price difference between midrange and upper tier models is all cosmetic. Some brands, such as Dovo which is the only one that really pops up in my head at the moment, churn out a lot of garbage and sell them as entry level models. But even the notorious Dovo "Best Quality" are made from pretty good steel that is heat treated and tempered quite decently, as a rule.

You can always find an exception to any of the above if you look hard enough. In other words, YMMV.

 

[life2short1971]

Thanks for the detailed opinion! So you are saying tempering and heating don't make a big difference between makers because they are too similar? right?

Anything can change how two identical blades shave no matter how small that change. Even two blades that seem identical from starting as steel blanks to finish honing can shave differently or the same. There is no guarantee.

 

[Biltong & Boerewors]

It is very common for European manufacturers to source forged blanks from another company and often many makers do indeed use blanks that are also used by many others. It's all about economy of scale in an industry that is a shadow of what it once was. Buying blanks in bulk could mean the difference between being forced to charge $300 for a finished razor and being able to charge $150 for the same razor.

Heat treating and tempering are wild cards. Except when they are not. Most major players will have very similar hardness profiles in the finished razor. What works well, works well, and what doesn't work well simply isn't used by any serious maker. Nobody has a magic bullet. Quench in oil, quench in lead, quench in mercury, quench in brine, cryo quench, properly done, all can give a good end result. Techniques that don't work as well for a particular alloy are obviously not used for that alloy by any successful company, or they would not be successful. BTW heat treating is heating the steel above a certain critical temperature and then quickly cooling it, which changes and locks in a particular structure in the steel. The goal is primarily a certain level of hardness, which will almost invariably be much harder than what is desirable in actual use. Tempering is heating the hardened razor to a much lower temperature to toughen the steel, removing some hardness in favor of a bit of springyness. The tempering does not make the steel harder. It makes it less brittle. This is commonly misunderstood by the layman.

I would not be too quick to lump Portland Razor Company with the better known European makers. Their products are somewhat controversial in some circles. This is almost to be expected from a new company (relative to the more established companies with centuries of history, or individual makers trained by the masters of the art.) Do a thorough search on PRC and you will find that while there are some happy owners, many buyers have been disappointed. Very likely some day their quality will stabilize. Or maybe not. But my take on it is that IF they now use QUALITY Solingen blanks, it would be a step in the right direction for a change. YMMV as I do not own one of their razors and I have no reason to buy one. I need to sell a few pounds of razors before buying a new expensive one. Well, except for the Carre I bought a few days ago LOL!

You can easily try your hand at HT and tempering. There are currently a lot of Herder blanks floating around cheap, and you can construct a forge quite easily using charcoal or gas. Youtube is your friend. Or get two. Treat one, leave the other alone, then do finish grinding and honing and mount some scales, and see how they perform. Or three. One gets full HT and tempering, one only HT and no tempering, and one gets nothing at all. Same steel, same primary grind, different final product. But obviously if you bought 100 of them to complete and then sell, you would quickly determine the best treatment profile to give consistent high quality to the finished razor, and follow that regimen. So your finished Herder blade would be pretty much identical to one finished by another maker who also strives for the best final characteristics.

Or you could decide that you know better than anyone else, and you could source your own blank supplier offering better prices, or forge your own using your own idea of what is the best razor steel, or some inexpensive mystery steel, and devise your own treatment that is only very loosely based on industry standards or realistic testing and comparison. Maybe you end up with a superior razor, but probably not. There really isn't anything "new" going on in mainstream razor production. Or just as bad, you might THINK you are doing everything just like the big players, just better, and you charge more. Or you think that you can do a better job than the big brands, so you charge more. A few buyers bite because your prices are higher and so surely your razors must be superior. Others stay away in droves and the thundering sound you hear is buyers' feet trampling and stampling right past your razors in favor of better choices. There, sitting in the dust cloud raised by that thundering herd, are your buyers, most crying with buyer's remorse, with a few blissfully happy ones blathering on about how your razor is a divinely inspired work of art and instrument of pogonotomical perfection. Hurry, sell them some more before they realize that the Emperor's New Clothes aren't really there.

I have a suspicion that the blanks bought by the big companies are already heat treated and tempered before getting to the razor maker for the final grind and finish.

Makes sense to me as the factory making the blanks can do this under very consistently controlled conditions to reduce variables.

I say that because I bought three blanks thinking they were finished blades, and when they arrived I file tested them to see if they were hard. Two of the three were definitely hard, the third one was a maybe.

With a lot of work I honed one and it keeps a good edge.

 

[Slash McCoy]

The Herder blanks going around are not heat treated.

 

[Biltong & Boerewors]

The two that were heat treated were a Dorko and a Bismark.

 

[Tanuki]

Just wanted to note that Ertan Süer makes some of his Rasoir Sabre France razors with his own blanks, forged to his spec by a nearby hot forge, Forges Foréziennes in Noirétable.

My 6/8 Campiono is one such razor.

 

[Polarbeard]

Volkswagen and Audi cars share about 95 percent of their parts even so people are willing to pay much more for an Audi. What I'm trying to say is that a razor is so much more than the blanks it is made of, My Aust, Böker and Wacker razors are better made than my Dovo razors even though they are made from the same blanks. Having stated that I still like my Dovo razors.