Is japanese natural awasedo grit really friable?

[Brooksie967]

That's right, and the discussion is interesting. Todd's images IIRC show the silica pieces essentially unchanged, but most JNat fanatics can feel the slurry change at some point, usually called 'breaking', and believe the edge is better after worked on 'broken' slurry a bit.

Maybe a reasonable explantion is that we are dealing with clumps of silica and binder even when raised with a matched tomo nagura, and the binder is breaking making smaller clumps? That might explain how the slurry gets smoother and finer but the silica particles remain relatively unchanged.

Cheers, Steve

Thinking out-loud here.

I wonder if that the feeling of breaking is just a result of steel in a specific state being changed by the abrasive from the stone? When you start honing there is a stronger abrasive feel as the properties and finish of the steel are being affected the most. As the abrasive works imagine half of the starting finish is changed. The honing sensation feels differently. Now imagine the work is finished; you won't see any more refinement from further honing so you no longer have a feel of slurry 'breaking'.

Not really sure how to describe that or if that makes sense?

 

[Steve56]

Thinking out-loud here.

I wonder if that the feeling of breaking is just a result of steel in a specific state being changed by the abrasive from the stone? When you start honing there is a stronger abrasive feel as the properties and finish of the steel are being affected the most. As the abrasive works imagine half of the starting finish is changed. The honing sensation feels differently. Now imagine the work is finished; you won't see any more refinement from further honing so you no longer have a feel of slurry 'breaking'.

Not really sure how to describe that or if that makes sense?

Yes, it does make sense - maybe we're feeling the finish on the bevel 'break' or transition, not the slurry?

But if that's true, shouldn't we feel something similar honing on synthetics as the bevel finish is refined? I don't have enough experience with synth finishers to say one way or the other.

Cheers, Steve

 

[Brooksie967]

Well we do listen/feel feedback on synths , not via slurry as its not really used. I do see what your saying.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Take a razor.

Hone it with a very obvious scratch pattern. DMT 8k works well for this.
Switch to Jnat + slurry. Hone a bit. In a different angle if you wish. Note scratch pattern. Hone more without a change in pressure or slurry thickness. Note if scratch pattern shows significantly smaller average scratches.

Won't work at 400x with very fine Jnats (Past the limits of what can be resolved there), but with better magnification or a coarser Jnat, shouldn't be much of a challenge.

 

[Avenolpey]

Take a razor.

Hone it with a very obvious scratch pattern. DMT 8k works well for this.
Switch to Jnat + slurry. Hone a bit. In a different angle if you wish. Note scratch pattern. Hone more without a change in pressure or slurry thickness. Note if scratch pattern shows significantly smaller average scratches.

Won't work at 400x with very fine Jnats (Past the limits of what can be resolved there), but with better magnification or a coarser Jnat, shouldn't be much of a challenge.

You would have to go back to your baseline 8k for this experiment to be valid. I believe Todd showed images of this.

 

[RusenBG]

I read many ilusions and overthinkings in this thread . The slurry of a Jnats realy breaks down ,the slurry of most stones break down , , but slower .
Jnats degrade slurry particles fast - the proof is the fact ,that the edge gets more refined ,after working , and keep working the slurry
If the slurry doesnt break finer - the edge will not be refined to a higher levell
Many will say we dont see it clearly on the microscope . Well my frends you dont see gravitation , but try to jump over the 10 floor of a building and you will meet the crule reality
The fact that you dont see something , is not the proof , that it doesnt exist or work
Please find the thrueth with a simple but effective experiments - the warm watter is better than the cold , the wool is warmer than the cotton and the Jnats are breaking slurry down , thats why , they are better than a conventional hones .
Merry Christhmass and a Happy New Year

 

[stoop]

The conventional wisdom is that the particle size breaks down. This may be specifically factually incorrect but in the end it doesn't matter whether or not it is the individual crystalline structure of the slurry particles that changes or some other factor that alters the viscosity of the slurry - in the end, all that matters is that its edge finishing properties change. It may not be as trivial as optical microscopy to determine why.