Increased frequency is giving excellent results with my black ark

[kohalajohn]

I am now getting better, excellent results with my black ark as a finisher.

I am accepting that it is a slow finisher, so am using it the same way I use my diamond pasted balsa, which is giving it some light treatment after each shave.

I used diluted Ballistol and fifty X strokes.

I have realized that instead of being frustrated with how some honing mediums are, instead I should embrace it, as slow means that eventually you get great edges.

My Bismark this morning, finished on a black ark, gave a really enjoyable shave.

I'm going to keep on doing it this way.

 

[lightfoot]

So you might consider keeping your 4/8 combo and just add something like the Naniwa 10,000 Super Stone. It may do an excellent job at bridging the gap between the Norton 8000 and the Arkansas stone. It may give you a head start on the Black.

 

[kohalajohn]

So you might consider keeping your 4/8 combo and just add something like the Naniwa 10,000 Super Stone. It may do an excellent job at bridging the gap between the Norton 8000 and the Arkansas stone. It may give you a head start on the Black.

I agree. Perhaps a Naniwa 12k as the bridge. That's what I had before, as the jump off before going to pasted balsa.

 

[lightfoot]

I agree. Perhaps a Naniwa 12k as the bridge. That's what I had before, as the jump off before going to pasted balsa.

Yeah either one is fine. That being said I always kind of felt like going from the Norton 8000 to the Naniwa 12,000 was a pretty big jump. So maybe the 10,000 might be a slightly easier transition. But it’s really a discretionary call.
It is hard to argue with Shapton’s Kuromaku series though. I wouldn’t mind adding the 2,000 and the 8,000 to my collection.

 

[JohnEzra]

I am now getting better, excellent results with my black ark as a finisher.

I am accepting that it is a slow finisher, so am using it the same way I use my diamond pasted balsa, which is giving it some light treatment after each shave.

I used diluted Ballistol and fifty X strokes.

I have realized that instead of being frustrated with how some honing mediums are, instead I should embrace it, as slow means that eventually you get great edges.

My Bismark this morning, finished on a black ark, gave a really enjoyable shave.

I'm going to keep on doing it this way.






View attachment 1213031

Microscope photos can be misleading, so I could be off base here, but that edge looks like it could still use some serious work. It looks like the deep scratches from the previous stone haven't bees removed, and that big shiny spot right at the edge looks like you might have pulled out a wire edge or not gotten the bevel set completely.

I'm glad you feel like it's giving you good shaves, but I bet with a little more time, and/or an intermediate stone, you would see even better results.

 

[kohalajohn]

Yeah, I am in the process of looking for a good midrange. I have some ancient and cheap 3/8 synths, but I can do better. Either nani or shaptons

 

[Tomo]

Black Ark edges are fantastic. They make very reliable and consistent finishers. Extreme sharpness is the most notable edge characteristic. The face feel is more crisp than smooth but they still maintain a high degree of skin friendliness. I finish mine on 600 WD and I don’t find them overly slow. I use maybe twice the number of laps as my other stones.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Arks are definitely a bit more of a learning curve than top notch stones like easy Jnats, Thuris, etc. But they're easier than difficult Jnats and some other stones and they give a great edge.

 

[kohalajohn]

Microscope photos can be misleading, so I could be off base here, but that edge looks like it could still use some serious work. It looks like the deep scratches from the previous stone haven't bees removed, and that big shiny spot right at the edge looks like you might have pulled out a wire edge or not gotten the bevel set completely.

I'm glad you feel like it's giving you good shaves, but I bet with a little more time, and/or an intermediate stone, you would see even better results.

Part of the issue is the microscope though. It gives shiny spots just because of the angle. When I move the razor along, that shiny spot disappears.

Having said that yes, more mid range honing is always helpful.

 

[kohalajohn]

Arks are definitely a bit more of a learning curve than top notch stones like easy Jnats, Thuris, etc. But they're easier than difficult Jnats and some other stones and they give a great edge.

Slice, I'd like to follow up on your comment about easy jnats vs difficult ones.

I am contemplating buying my very first jnat. I have an email out to Alex.

For a finishing jnat, one easy to use. Perhaps using Alfredo's method of creating slurry while lapping with a worn diamond plate, and no naguras, can you give some ideas?

 

[kohalajohn]

Arks are definitely a bit more of a learning curve than top notch stones like easy Jnats, Thuris, etc. But they're easier than difficult Jnats and some other stones and they give a great edge.

Slice, question for you in the thread below.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Oh I am far from a Jnat expert. Of the finishing Jnat's I've had, I'd say maybe 20% are "easy" in my eyes. They basically work like a Thuri... slap a razor around on one, and you get a great shave. The majority were much more complicated. They'd have dead spots, or overly grippy spots, or they'd only work well with particular steels, or have any of a number of other struggles. They were capable of a good shave, but there always felt like there were some hoops to jump through or some caveats.

In general the best advice, though I wish I could give better, is buy your jnat from a vendor who sharpens razors and whom you trust. They'll know what stones are good for razors and can pick one out for you.


I had a set of nagura and basically never bothered with them. Stone with water and/or Tomo slurry. Tomo slurry helps a lot with more troublesome jnats, but again, with the really nice ones it's not necessary, just speeds up bevel polishing a little in my experience. I think the guys who like doing nagura progressions these days do it more as a ritual they enjoy than because it's better than the alternatives.

 

[kohalajohn]

Oh I am far from a Jnat expert. Of the finishing Jnat's I've had, I'd say maybe 20% are "easy" in my eyes. They basically work like a Thuri... slap a razor around on one, and you get a great shave. The majority were much more complicated. They'd have dead spots, or overly grippy spots, or they'd only work well with particular steels, or have any of a number of other struggles. They were capable of a good shave, but there always felt like there were some hoops to jump through or some caveats.

In general the best advice, though I wish I could give better, is buy your jnat from a vendor who sharpens razors and whom you trust. They'll know what stones are good for razors and can pick one out for you.


I had a set of nagura and basically never bothered with them. Stone with water and/or Tomo slurry. Tomo slurry helps a lot with more troublesome jnats, but again, with the really nice ones it's not necessary, just speeds up bevel polishing a little in my experience. I think the guys who like doing nagura progressions these days do it more as a ritual they enjoy than because it's better than the alternatives.

Thanks for that.

In terms of a trusted vendor, folk here talk about Alex, but on his site he says he's currently not selling online.

I looked at the other side, japannaturalstones.com. Although there the jnats for razors are seven hundred bucks. Ouch.

I think I may just delay this for a bit. I have tons of other stones to play with right now.

 

[JohnEzra]

Part of the issue is the microscope though. It gives shiny spots just because of the angle. When I move the razor along, that shiny spot disappears.

Having said that yes, more mid range honing is always helpful.

Just from my experience with my scope, there has to be something flat/undesirable on the edge to create the reflection. Even though it looks like it goes away as the razor moves, it is probably still there, just no longer at the perfect angle to reflect light back into the sensor. In other words, if at any time or position the apex of the edge itself reflects a lot of light, even if it goes away at some other angle, you’ve probably got an issue.

Also, he may be low on stock right now, but it’s not uncommon to find koppa or other standard, less rare/visually appealing stones on JNS in the 100-350$ range. Hell, there’s a nice Ozuku Koppa on there right now for $150.

 

[LJS]

If each time you go to your ark the edge improves, then it sure seems like the edge wasn’t done to begin with.

Arks are not slow in general if it is a good stone. What makes them slow is how much pressure you use and how they are finished. They are not grit stones.

My opinion on something you may want to try with your ark. Take your absolutely sharpest razor and finish it all the way on your diamond balsa strops. Then go do your light strokes on the ark (perfect ones, a single lift will cost you) and give it a shave. I think people miss good finishers abilities by trying to use them for last stage of sharpening and I think they can be nicer if you make a razor supremely sharp and perfect before you use the “finisher”. It should be completely done before you try to impart the final finish on the edge. 100% not 98 or 98. Just a suggestion to try.

 

[kohalajohn]

If each time you go to your ark the edge improves, then it sure seems like the edge wasn’t done to begin with.

Arks are not slow in general if it is a good stone. What makes them slow is how much pressure you use and how they are finished. They are not grit stones.

My opinion on something you may want to try with your ark. Take your absolutely sharpest razor and finish it all the way on your diamond balsa strops. Then go do your light strokes on the ark (perfect ones, a single lift will cost you) and give it a shave. I think people miss good finishers abilities by trying to use them for last stage of sharpening and I think they can be nicer if you make a razor supremely sharp and perfect before you use the “finisher”. It should be completely done before you try to impart the final finish on the edge. 100% not 98 or 98. Just a suggestion to try.

I'll give it a shot

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Is your Black Ark lapped?

I lap one side to 600 wet & dry and 1k, then burnished the other. The more you burnish the slower it cuts, but finer polish

I go from an 8k Snow White to a natural. The Snow White does not load up like the 12k but will leave a near mirror finish, great jumping off point or Chrome Ox or .50 CBN pasted strop.

 

[kohalajohn]

If each time you go to your ark the edge improves, then it sure seems like the edge wasn’t done to begin with.

Arks are not slow in general if it is a good stone. What makes them slow is how much pressure you use and how they are finished. They are not grit stones.

My opinion on something you may want to try with your ark. Take your absolutely sharpest razor and finish it all the way on your diamond balsa strops. Then go do your light strokes on the ark (perfect ones, a single lift will cost you) and give it a shave. I think people miss good finishers abilities by trying to use them for last stage of sharpening and I think they can be nicer if you make a razor supremely sharp and perfect before you use the “finisher”. It should be completely done before you try to impart the final finish on the edge. 100% not 98 or 98. Just a suggestion to try.

This idea ties into something I'm currently puzzling over.

I'm trying to choose between a Shapton 6k HC or 8k HC as the last in my synth progression before moving to natural finishers.

Some people jump off at 6k, some at 8k.

Your theory would support going higher up on the synths before going to the natural finisher.

I would imagine that the theory here is that it's best for a finisher to be used only as a pure finisher. Don't make it do any of the mid range work at all.

 

[JohnEzra]

This idea ties into something I'm currently puzzling over.

I'm trying to choose between a Shapton 6k HC or 8k HC as the last in my synth progression before moving to natural finishers.

Some people jump off at 6k, some at 8k.

Your theory would support going higher up on the synths before going to the natural finisher.

I would imagine that the theory here is that it's best for a finisher to be used only as a pure finisher. Don't make it do any of the mid range work at all.

That really depends more on the stone you’re using to finish. If we are talking about a Surgical Ark, yeah, I’d want to jump to that with the edge pretty well developed from a high grit synth. On the other hand if we are talking about a coticule or Jnat with full nagura progression I’ll get the razor’s geometry sorted out and bevel mostly set on a 1k or 2k synth, and then jump straight to the “finisher”.

 

[nvpliers]

Hi....I've been reading and watching YouTube videos regarding JNATs. (WOW. There's a lot to learn!). Let me see if I got these principles correct:

1) Use a diamond plate, like the Atoma 400, if you want to use the grit off the JNAT stone itself.
2) Use Naguras if you want to use the grit off the Nagura slurry stone, and those grits will vary depending on the stone.
3) Use the Tomo Nagura if you want a very high grit, but not from the finishing stone, but from the Tomo Nagura. So it would represent the highest grit choice, without an inordinate amount of actual finishing stone degradation.

Any help on these principles would be appreciated. Thank you all in advance.