In search for the most rust resistant razor blade
- Thread starter esee
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DE razor blades are not 400 series stainless, typically they are something like Uddeholm 14C28, developed for stainless character plus very fine carbides. 400 series stainless (which is a US Steel designation I think) have coarse carbides and don't hone to a super fine edge. Great for knives, but less than stellar as razors. I've seen stainless straight razors marked 410 and 440, but I have no idea how they shave. Zwilllings Friodur is probably not 440C, but I don't know which alloy it actually is.
200 series is what stainless steel cooking pans are made of, also known as 18/10 and like 300 series stainless steels do not contain enough carbon to harden. Think butter knife edge.
I have not seen rust on any stainless blade in the last 50 years.
200 series is what stainless steel cooking pans are made of, also known as 18/10 and like 300 series stainless steels do not contain enough carbon to harden. Think butter knife edge.
I have not seen rust on any stainless blade in the last 50 years.
I must be missing something. I've never had a razor blade rust. Never.
I rinse and dry razor and blade after a shave, reassemble the razor, and put it in a stand until the next day. Takes less than 90 seconds.
If you just toss a wet razor in a cabinet for days at a time, you're going to get rusty blades and a tea stained razor.
I rinse and dry razor and blade after a shave, reassemble the razor, and put it in a stand until the next day. Takes less than 90 seconds.
If you just toss a wet razor in a cabinet for days at a time, you're going to get rusty blades and a tea stained razor.
Japan steel. Kai, Feather, Bic CP, Super Thin with Japan Flag (Vietnam).
I have been DE shaving for 12 years and have never once had rust on a blade. I just rinse the razor and hang it to air dry when I am done. I usually keep a blade in for 3 shaves (about a week). Mostly use NACET blades now but have used many others in the past with no rust.
@esee , its great that you are experimenting with DE blades however there is nothing inferior about the steel used in most of our razor blades. I'm in agreement with most of the responses from fellow B&Bers such as @HoosierTrooper , @psfred , @Whisky and others.
The martensitic stainless steel used in razor blades has a lower chromium and higher carbon content that allows it to be hardened via a heating and quenching process (annealing/tempering). This gives it the right balance of hardness and corrosion resistance that enable our blades to hold an edge for many shaves while resisting any rust. As noted in many posts above we have not had rust problems with our stainless steel razor blades made of this metal.
The coils of steel are sold to razor blade manufacturers in a pre-tempered state. One manufacturer notes that they temper the blades at 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit after stamping the blade shape prior to grinding the edges. Coatings are applied later in the process and sintered on at a lower 660 degrees Farenheit that would not effect the blade tempering. Coatings are just applied to the edges. Reasonably consistent with processes shared by a couple of other manufacturers including KAI linked below. No reason to be concerned that coating blades will weaken the steel and the temperatures required are very different.
Austenitic steels, with more chromium and less carbon, like 304 or 316 marine grade, while more corrosion resistant will not hold the edge needed for a razor blade and can't be tempered. Blade manufactures need to use martensitic steel.
Bottom line is because of the need to use harder martensitic steel one is not going to find effective razor blades with marine grade like corrosion resistance. The good news is the corrosion resistance of the blade steel used is perfectly adequate for the job.
Modern DE blades are not designed to be sharpened. I've yet to see real proof, beyond YMMV perception, that any sharpening approach, such as rubbing the blade around a glass, really works. Given the MIT research study that determined microchipping was the cause of razor blade wear from shaving I would ask how any of these sharpening techniques could fill in the damaged areas where the blade edge metal has been chipped away. One would need honing tools that would wear down enough metal to create an entirely new edge. Follow on questions would be if any manual honing tools could recreate a new edge with the precision of the original and would a sharpened DE blade actually work well now that its coating were removed. The thicker DE blades from the early 20th century that could be sharpened were not coated. Also, since they were made of carbon steel, sharpening would have worked better as it would remove rapidly forming rust.
Sense a lot of incorrect assumptions/conclusions due to inadequate research driving some of the discussion here on blades. Not to mention the complete misinformation on other unrelated topics already called out that we do not need to revisit.
Regardless esee good luck with your tests and experiments as you continue your shaving journey. Again YMMV is the rule here so if something like sharpening your blades works for you then let us know and enjoy the results.
The martensitic stainless steel used in razor blades has a lower chromium and higher carbon content that allows it to be hardened via a heating and quenching process (annealing/tempering). This gives it the right balance of hardness and corrosion resistance that enable our blades to hold an edge for many shaves while resisting any rust. As noted in many posts above we have not had rust problems with our stainless steel razor blades made of this metal.
The coils of steel are sold to razor blade manufacturers in a pre-tempered state. One manufacturer notes that they temper the blades at 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit after stamping the blade shape prior to grinding the edges. Coatings are applied later in the process and sintered on at a lower 660 degrees Farenheit that would not effect the blade tempering. Coatings are just applied to the edges. Reasonably consistent with processes shared by a couple of other manufacturers including KAI linked below. No reason to be concerned that coating blades will weaken the steel and the temperatures required are very different.
Austenitic steels, with more chromium and less carbon, like 304 or 316 marine grade, while more corrosion resistant will not hold the edge needed for a razor blade and can't be tempered. Blade manufactures need to use martensitic steel.
Bottom line is because of the need to use harder martensitic steel one is not going to find effective razor blades with marine grade like corrosion resistance. The good news is the corrosion resistance of the blade steel used is perfectly adequate for the job.
Modern DE blades are not designed to be sharpened. I've yet to see real proof, beyond YMMV perception, that any sharpening approach, such as rubbing the blade around a glass, really works. Given the MIT research study that determined microchipping was the cause of razor blade wear from shaving I would ask how any of these sharpening techniques could fill in the damaged areas where the blade edge metal has been chipped away. One would need honing tools that would wear down enough metal to create an entirely new edge. Follow on questions would be if any manual honing tools could recreate a new edge with the precision of the original and would a sharpened DE blade actually work well now that its coating were removed. The thicker DE blades from the early 20th century that could be sharpened were not coated. Also, since they were made of carbon steel, sharpening would have worked better as it would remove rapidly forming rust.
Sense a lot of incorrect assumptions/conclusions due to inadequate research driving some of the discussion here on blades. Not to mention the complete misinformation on other unrelated topics already called out that we do not need to revisit.
Regardless esee good luck with your tests and experiments as you continue your shaving journey. Again YMMV is the rule here so if something like sharpening your blades works for you then let us know and enjoy the results.
Manufacturing processes (RAZOR) | KAI FACTORY | KAI Group
Here we are introducing the manufacturing processes of RAZOR produced in KAI's factories.
www.kai-group.com
- Thread starter
- #87
My search for the most rust resistant razor blade has already been called off. I started the search when I was thinking about DE shaving. At that point, I have not even owned any DE razors yet and was doing research online. After getting my hands on a few razor blades and doing a simple water test, I concluded that under normal circumstances, modern stainless razor blades will not rust. The rusting, which happens to a few people, most likely occurs because of galvanic corrosion. With this understanding, I now know not to leave a wet razor blade in the razor.@esee , its great that you are experimenting with DE blades however there is nothing inferior about the steel used in most of our razor blades. I'm in agreement with most of the responses from fellow B&Bers such as @HoosierTrooper , @psfred , @Whisky and others.
The martensitic stainless steel used in razor blades has a lower chromium and higher carbon content that allows it to be hardened via a heating and quenching process (annealing/tempering). This gives it the right balance of hardness and corrosion resistance that enable our blades to hold an edge for many shaves while resisting any rust. As noted in many posts above we have not had rust problems with our stainless steel razor blades made of this metal.
The coils of steel are sold to razor blade manufacturers in a pre-tempered state. One manufacturer notes that they temper the blades at 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit after stamping the blade shape prior to grinding the edges. Coatings are applied later in the process and sintered on at a lower 660 degrees Farenheit that would not effect the blade tempering. Coatings are just applied to the edges. Reasonably consistent with processes shared by a couple of other manufacturers including KAI linked below. No reason to be concerned that coating blades will weaken the steel and the temperatures required are very different.
Austenitic steels, with more chromium and less carbon, like 304 or 316 marine grade, while more corrosion resistant will not hold the edge needed for a razor blade and can't be tempered. Blade manufactures need to use martensitic steel.
Bottom line is because of the need to use harder martensitic steel one is not going to find effective razor blades with marine grade like corrosion resistance. The good news is the corrosion resistance of the blade steel used is perfectly adequate for the job.
Modern DE blades are not designed to be sharpened. I've yet to see real proof, beyond YMMV perception, that any sharpening approach, such as rubbing the blade around a glass, really works. Given the MIT research study that determined microchipping was the cause of razor blade wear from shaving I would ask how any of these sharpening techniques could fill in the damaged areas where the blade edge metal has been chipped away. One would need honing tools that would wear down enough metal to create an entirely new edge. Follow on questions would be if any manual honing tools could recreate a new edge with the precision of the original and would a sharpened DE blade actually work well now that its coating were removed. The thicker DE blades from the early 20th century that could be sharpened were not coated. Also, since they were made of carbon steel, sharpening would have worked better as it would remove rapidly forming rust.
Sense a lot of incorrect assumptions/conclusions due to inadequate research driving some of the discussion here on blades. Not to mention the complete misinformation on other unrelated topics already called out that we do not need to revisit.
Regardless esee good luck with your tests and experiments as you continue your shaving journey. Again YMMV is the rule here so if something like sharpening your blades works for you then let us know and enjoy the results.
Manufacturing processes (RAZOR) | KAI FACTORY | KAI Group
Here we are introducing the manufacturing processes of RAZOR produced in KAI's factories.www.kai-group.com
I keep hearing people talking about high carbon steel as the best material for razor blades. Yet most don’t mention or even consider 404 stainless steel. 404 stainless was first used for knives in the early 1900s. 404 stainless steel is an optimal razor blade material not considering cost. 404 stainless would eliminate almost all galvanic corrosion that people experience with their blades. For now, if one leaves their wet razor blade in their 316 stainless razor, there is a small possibility of them experience, galvanic corrosion.
I would prefer if people don’t keep on bumping this thread as I am no longer looking for the most rust resistant razor blade. It would be nice if blade manufacturers produced 400 series stainless blades, yet I do not expect to end humanity’s destructive worldly habits with razor blades. There will have to be a much more grandeur worldly shift where people no longer get rewarded for destroying. When doctors stop getting rewarded for keeping people sick, when businesses no longer get rewarded for selling disposable products, and when people realize that living for the whole will produce far greater wealth and happiness over the selfish grabbing of the shrunken ego.
I could continue on about the second portion of your post where you discuss razor blade sharpening, yet I feel this part of the discussion should continue in my razor blade sharpening thread. yet in short, I am happy that some modern blade manufacturers use better manufacturing practices where they do not produce brittle blades, and one can see from helicopter’s data that some blades failure point are chipping while others bend, and dent. Based on this information, one will most likely have more success stropping a blade that bends over chipping. Most quality blades chip over time so so running the blade through a glass will only be able to help so much. Yet we can see that there are some blades that are extremely durable. I have read of two reports where someone has kept their blade performing for 6+ months. In both reports, the user was using a feather blade. Therefore, based on these reports, I conclude, although not scientifically, that feather blades are likely the result of superior manufacturing procedures.
As far as putting a new edge on the blade, the main constraint is the flexibility of the blade. It is not very difficult to design a blade holder that will hold the blade steady from behind. There is also a vintage blade sharpener by the name of “STANFORD MFG. CORP - 5 SECOND SHARPENER” which holds and sharpens DE blades.
- Thread starter
- #88
@Lane101 Razor Blade Evolution - Gillette Adjustable Razors - https://gilletteadjustable.com/misc-2/razor-blade-evolution/ An interesting read glorifying Gillette and the Teflon coating. I thought to copy a little piece of this article which mentions the original weakening of the stainless through the Teflon coating.
“Gillette’s next innovation was the Super Stainless Blade (1965). This blade dubbed “The Spoiler” had a “miracle plastic coating baked onto the edge” - this was a PTFE coating with similar properties as the silicon coated Super Blue blades from 1959. However, the heat necessary to apply the PTFE coating, necessary for better cutting action, caused the underlying metal to weaken and lose its anti-corrosive properties. It was discovered that adding a corrosive resistant noble metal such as platinum, gold or rhodium solved this problem. However, these metals are soft and needed to be alloyed with chromium, titanium or tungsten. Next came platinum-chromium alloys and PTFE coating for stainless steel (US3682795) from Gillette as the Platinum Plus (1969).
“Gillette’s next innovation was the Super Stainless Blade (1965). This blade dubbed “The Spoiler” had a “miracle plastic coating baked onto the edge” - this was a PTFE coating with similar properties as the silicon coated Super Blue blades from 1959. However, the heat necessary to apply the PTFE coating, necessary for better cutting action, caused the underlying metal to weaken and lose its anti-corrosive properties. It was discovered that adding a corrosive resistant noble metal such as platinum, gold or rhodium solved this problem. However, these metals are soft and needed to be alloyed with chromium, titanium or tungsten. Next came platinum-chromium alloys and PTFE coating for stainless steel (US3682795) from Gillette as the Platinum Plus (1969).
Thank you for sharing.
Hard to know if what was true then is still true today over 50 years later as manufacturers have learned more. Always challenging to draw a conclusion from a single data point. For example a quick AI query states that a temperature between 500°C and 650°C (930°F and 1200°F) is typically what it would take to ruin the temper of martensitic steel. If true for razor blade steel than the 660°F sintering temperature, shared by one of the blade manufacturers researched, to lock on coatings, would not impact blade metal strength. Again this is just another data point though logical given the earlier process blade tempering at 2,000°F. If true there is no reason to avoid coated blades due to fear of weakened metal.
One of the challenges with DE blades is that we really have to dig to get basic product information as manufacturers, who are focused on moving consumers to their more profitable cartridge based shaving systems, don't release a lot of data and do very little marketing of DE blades. As you spend more time on B&B you will find that we often have to share information and collaborate to understand things and even then we don't have 100% certainty. As a result it's often best when sharing research to sometimes avoid absolute conclusions.
We look forward to continuing dialogue on your blade sharpening thread.
soak a blade for a week in pickle juice. See how it looks. Call us in the morning.
I have 1940s gillette blue blades that are in immaculate condition. But an hour after getting them wet they have already made rust spots.
I have had modern stianless blades, shark adn derby that did indeed rust. After beign left outside stuck in a board for 3 years.
I have 1940s gillette blue blades that are in immaculate condition. But an hour after getting them wet they have already made rust spots.
I have had modern stianless blades, shark adn derby that did indeed rust. After beign left outside stuck in a board for 3 years.
You might want to test submerging the blade while it is held in a razor to test if galvanic corrosion is the main source of rust.
Most stainless DE razor blades are made out of 13C26/AEB-L.
These steels are variants of 420HC with higher proportions of alloying ingredients.
- Thread starter
- #94
That’s a great idea except I already called this experiment. I am content to know that these blades are rust resistant under normal wet conditions. When I was doing research into my first purchase of razor blades, I got scared that some blades may rust from being wet. If I try really hard, I’m pretty sure I can get these blades to rust. Either through galvanic corrosion, or by leaving the blades in the wet condition and periodically washing off its protective layer with an acid.
You may be right. I cannot determine the grade of steel used in the blades because manufacturers do not publish steel specifications. However, I still doubt that most razor blades use 400-series steel, as 400-series steel shouldn’t react with 300-series steel. There appear to be cases of ionic reactions between the 300 steel razors and modern stainless blades. If these blades are truly 400-series steel, then the 300-series razors and the modern razor blades should not experience galvanic reactions. I’m sure somebody can carry out these rust experiments much further, yet I’m content knowing that the modern razor blades are rust resistant in noncorrosive what environments.
so whats the general consensus? i have to have a rusting issue
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