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Imperia la Roccia

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I recently reviewed a video showcasing a hone called Imperia la Roccia. The video is at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5XhAlnp4bM. The video is interesting because the Honemeister utilizes the la Roccia right after setting the bevel (he only uses two stones) and because he uses paper to test the edge throughout the honing process.

I recently used a la Roccia as a finisher. I don’t have the technique or the experience to need only two hones; but the stone was harder than any Thuringian or Dragon’s Tongue I’ve ever used. It is a fast cutter. With a light to medium slurry I can see how it can be versatile in experienced hands. After a few laps on a diamond paste treated strop and 15 to 20 laps on leather the shave was luxurious.

I would welcome any thoughts on the issues this video raises: 1) using paper to gauge the razor’s edge; 2) using only two stones to attain a good shaving edge; 3) using the la Roccia in general.

Thanks all.
 
Hi Gar1,

So what stone did you lead the Imperia La Roccia with?

1) I use paper to test an edge. It is not something that should be entered into lightly. There is some potential for edge damage. Not likely catastrophic, but maybe enough to make one back up 10 to 12 laps. It has the advantage of being useful at any point along the process. With enough practice, experience and concentration, it may be possible to detect a difference in an edge with as little as 20 laps. It can also help to prevent us from over honing and wasting metal, by letting us know that continued laps are not improving the edge any longer on this particular stone.

2) The La Roccia is a slate stone. Many slate stones, including the Thuringian and Dragons Tongue that you mentioned, have an ability to cover a large spectrum quickly. Wouldn't it be nice if only one stone were always capable of doing the job. Well, that might really get boring for the guys that like to test and play with different stones. Lots use only one to refresh the edge regularly. I've seen elsewhere that some have tested the idea of one or two stones from beginning to end. Might not be possible with some fleabay razors with more serious edge damage. I've also seen that some cloth strops can easily bridge the gap from 8K to very smooth shave fairly quickly.

3) I have also used the Imperia La Roccia. We will all get varying results from any stone. I have seen comments that new honers should stick with synthetics, but the facebook groups seem to have a large number of newer honers claiming very good success with this natural. I am very happy with mine, and it is more often than not, my go to finisher. It seems a little slower to build a slurry than some, but once it gets started it builds ok. Seems to have a wide range that it can cover to polish the bevel, and then with clear water, seems to exceed the C12K and the DT, for finish. I have but one coticule, and evidently picked the wrong one, but my La Roccia is far ahead of my coticule.

Anyone else got some input here? Any experience in the 3 points mentioned?
Cheers,
 
Hi Gar1,

So what stone did you lead the Imperia La Roccia with?

1) I use paper to test an edge. It is not something that should be entered into lightly. There is some potential for edge damage. Not likely catastrophic, but maybe enough to make one back up 10 to 12 laps. It has the advantage of being useful at any point along the process. With enough practice, experience and concentration, it may be possible to detect a difference in an edge with as little as 20 laps. It can also help to prevent us from over honing and wasting metal, by letting us know that continued laps are not improving the edge any longer on this particular stone.

2) The La Roccia is a slate stone. Many slate stones, including the Thuringian and Dragons Tongue that you mentioned, have an ability to cover a large spectrum quickly. Wouldn't it be nice if only one stone were always capable of doing the job. Well, that might really get boring for the guys that like to test and play with different stones. Lots use only one to refresh the edge regularly. I've seen elsewhere that some have tested the idea of one or two stones from beginning to end. Might not be possible with some fleabay razors with more serious edge damage. I've also seen that some cloth strops can easily bridge the gap from 8K to very smooth shave fairly quickly.

3) I have also used the Imperia La Roccia. We will all get varying results from any stone. I have seen comments that new honers should stick with synthetics, but the facebook groups seem to have a large number of newer honers claiming very good success with this natural. I am very happy with mine, and it is more often than not, my go to finisher. It seems a little slower to build a slurry than some, but once it gets started it builds ok. Seems to have a wide range that it can cover to polish the bevel, and then with clear water, seems to exceed the C12K and the DT, for finish. I have but one coticule, and evidently picked the wrong one, but my La Roccia is far ahead of my coticule.

Anyone else got some input here? Any experience in the 3 points mentioned?
Cheers,


Thanks Big Easy,

I used a Naniwa Chosera 5000 before using the la Roccia with a medium slurry to clear water. I was surprised at how fast it cut; not like most of the slate hones I have tried. I always feel like I'm missing some of the subtleties of the medium grit stones if I go directly from 1000 to a finisher. But that would be cool to be able to accomplish an effective edge with only two stones. Don't think I"m there yet.

I really like the way the entire edge can be slowly and carefully tested with paper; I've seen Maksim who sells J-NATS do the same thing when he sharpens knives; in fact I've seen other knife makers use paper. Not sure how it can damage the edge in any permanent way in the middle of honing. Don't you just get the edge back as soon as you go back to the stone?

Thanks for your response.
 
I don't like the video at all. He says "ours" when referring to the stones so he is a seller trying to promote them seems like.

He also has 1 coticule(probably a slow one that's average/below average) and a black arkie(he doesn't seem the type to surface it properly). I bet he would be saying the same crap if using a welsh slate. Give him a Jnat or a YG Escher or a Vosgienne/Lune (even a frankonian if talking speed) and he would eat his words about the cheap stones he is using being fast or even good.

If they were such high performance stones they wouldn't be $30 for a big slab. I have yet to see them be proven better than a purple Llyn Melynlln, this video included.

Ignorance is bliss I guess. If you don't even know what a good stone is, almost anything seems great. You mention beginners raving about them, same deal, they don't know what a good stone is of course they like them.

Just a bad video IMO. I'm not convinced I'll buy a 12-15k roccia and it even be close to a thuri in fineness or cutting ability. My guess is they are like a slightly faster C12k or welsh slate(remember when people raved about both those?)

I could have done everything in that video(including bevel set) on my frankonian in like 5 minutes or possibly less. I did not like the information provided. He is ignorant and trying to act like he knows what is best honing wise when he owns all of 3 stones....

Also I reckon 90% of my finishers can follow a 1k better than what's in the video. The soapy water also makes his 1k scratches way shallower and easier to remove. I could do it with no added lubricant.

Someone throw that man a 5x1 Escher to shut him up about this Roccia.
 
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Thanks Big Easy,

I used a Naniwa Chosera 5000 before using the la Roccia with a medium slurry to clear water. I was surprised at how fast it cut; not like most of the slate hones I have tried. I always feel like I'm missing some of the subtleties of the medium grit stones if I go directly from 1000 to a finisher. But that would be cool to be able to accomplish an effective edge with only two stones. Don't think I"m there yet.

I really like the way the entire edge can be slowly and carefully tested with paper; I've seen Maksim who sells J-NATS do the same thing when he sharpens knives; in fact I've seen other knife makers use paper. Not sure how it can damage the edge in any permanent way in the middle of honing. Don't you just get the edge back as soon as you go back to the stone?

Thanks for your response.

Looks like we have the thread to ourselves. Yes I agree, the La Roccia is fast, but what surprised me, was that it seems faster than the other stones mentioned, and yet at the same time, finer than most. And it doesn't seem to need a 'thick' slurry to accomplish it's magic. Almost any slurry seems to work.

I have had several mention that paper cutting is a knife thing and razors are not knives. Razors do have a much narrower angle, and are much more delicate, but to me, that doesn't mean the paper test is any less valuable. I wouldn't try to open tin cans with my razor, as I did with my buck Woodsman, as a much younger man. But paper cutting has so many ways it can help a honer. It is great to compare two comparable stones. 20 laps on each and a test, then the other and a test. A few series of this can tell you exactly how they compare, at least to each other. Most other methods take longer, and tell less. And yes, it can be used to compare the entire edge to the rest of the edge, by cutting from heel to toe in one pass. And it grows. If you use it regularly, you become more in tune to the feedback, and you learn more from it, and it becomes easier to use without causing damage. Most of the time, I fell no need to consider the minor damage, any more than you would consider the damage caused by one swipe of the razor on your face.

Cheers,
 
Also that video never shows the edge or scratch pattern. I bet the 1k scratches are plenty visible still with just the very apex refined.

Same as me going 1k to a Jnat. Yeah I can shave fine but the bevel and scratch pattern are not truly refined just the apex.(Not necessarily bad but it doesn't make the stone any good)
 
I don't like the video at all. He says "ours" when referring to the stones so he is a seller trying to promote them seems like.

He also has 1 coticule(probably a slow one that's average/below average) and a black arkie(he doesn't seem the type to surface it properly). I bet he would be saying the same crap if using a welsh slate. Give him a Jnat or a YG Escher or a Vosgienne/Lune (even a frankonian if talking speed) and he would eat his words about the cheap stones he is using being fast or even good.

If they were such high performance stones they wouldn't be $30 for a big slab. I have yet to see them be proven better than a purple Llyn Melynlln, this video included.

Ignorance is bliss I guess. If you don't even know what a good stone is, almost anything seems great. You mention beginners raving about them, same deal, they don't know what a good stone is of course they like them.

Just a bad video IMO. I'm not convinced I'll buy a 12-15k roccia and it even be close to a thuri in fineness or cutting ability. My guess is they are like a slightly faster C12k or welsh slate(remember when people raved about both those?)

I could have done everything in that video(including bevel set) on my frankonian in like 5 minutes or possibly less. I did not like the information provided. He is ignorant and trying to act like he knows what is best honing wise when he owns all of 3 stones....

Also I reckon 90% of my finishers can follow a 1k better than what's in the video. The soapy water also makes his 1k scratches way shallower and easier to remove. I could do it with no added lubricant.

Someone throw that man a 5x1 Escher to shut him up about this Roccia.


Wow! Someone needs a nap. "I could have done everything in that video(including bevel set) on my frankonian in like 5 minutes or possibly less. I did not like the information provided...Also I reckon 90% of my finishers can follow a 1k better than what's in the video. The soapy water also makes his 1k scratches way shallower and easier to remove. I could do it with no added lubricant."

So...you could have done better and made it more difficult? Somehow this video reminded you of...how wonderful you are? Without going into the exculpating merits of your self-absorbed speculations: 1) you've pontificated about a stone you've never used; speculated about restorers whose history and experience you do not know; and unless you shaved with the razor on the video or understand the feel and sound of that blade as it slid through the paper, you have no idea if 90% of your finishers "can follow a 1K better..." I can't think of anything more unhelpful (and antithetical to an open forum) than your all too personal rant.

There is more than one way to skin a cat. These pages are here to explore them, not to enforce some SR. Orthodoxy based upon a label fetish.
 
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First of all im comvinced that Imperia hone is good one , but not convinced that this old scool 2 stones method is the right way .
Few things make me impretion
1 First stone is King Deluxe or Makita , i have the same but the guy have some biger inclusions on the Imperia when began polishing . It sounds when honing the inclusion in the slurry maybe from contamination .
2 It maters aways how thick slurry you use for the speed and finish ect.
3 We use paer on folders to test sharpness but the fine edge of a rasor - maybe a good way to get rid of the wire edge when overhoning but after you need a touch up to fix the edge .
4 I dont think that is shave ready razor the way it behaves on the skin and hair tests q and i dont think that this polishing is enought for a confortable or any kind of shave .
5 Whats the point using soap watter in the slurry , decreasing its cutting abbilities .It can be used after plain water instead of oil .
Otherwise the 2 stones conception is working and used for many years by the barbers , but the rasiermeister must know what to do .
This isnt at all in this case in the video .
The edge from 2 stones comes sharper and bity not very confortable - they use it in the heavy , thick , grassy beards. This kind of edge must be used from a barber or very experienced man to work and not irritating the skin .
The X strokes looks roght - the honer have experience , unfortunately is not an example to follow .
For me they are 2 guys that was drinking and decide to make a honning video . Fun and pleasant video , the honer is very manly man to shave with this edge :w00t:
 
Wow! Someone needs a nap. "I could have done everything in that video(including bevel set) on my frankonian in like 5 minutes or possibly less. I did not like the information provided...Also I reckon 90% of my finishers can follow a 1k better than what's in the video. The soapy water also makes his 1k scratches way shallower and easier to remove. I could do it with no added lubricant."

So...you could have done better and made it more difficult? Somehow this video reminded you of...how wonderful you are? Without going into the exculpating merits of your self-absorbed speculations: 1) you've pontificated about a stone you've never used; speculated about restorers whose history and experience you do not know; and unless you shaved with the razor on the video or understand the feel and sound of that blade as it slid through the paper, you have no idea if 90% of your finishers "can follow a 1K better..." I can't think of anything more unhelpful (and antithetical to an open forum) than your all too personal rant.

There is more than one way to skin a cat. These pages are here to explore them, not to enforce some SR. Orthodoxy based upon a label fetish.

My point is he is putting out bad information. Everything I said has NOTHING to do with my skills but everything to do with stones.

Telling people an Imperia is good enough for 1 stone honing will probably leave a ton of people dissapointed if they went and bought one because of that video or you saying it.

Back to what I said - A frankonian is such an abrasive rich natural it can clear 1k scratches in 2 minutes max and be shave ready soon after. Has nothing to do with my honing ability, anyone here who has honed a razor can pull it off. A good coticule can do the same but a bit slower. While actually refining the ENTIRE bevel. And so can many other stones, Imperia's.... not so much.

Also it is not just 90% of MY finishers could do a better job it is EVERY established honer here who's stones could do a better job(those that own multiple finishers anyway). Speed wise Imperias are just above the welsh and chinese stones.

I think honing videos should be educational and that was more misleading than anything.

Any finishing stone can make just the apex clean and possibly shave. I just think it is a bad video that appears to be put out by people SELLING the stone. He could barely even shave arm hair after... come on now, definately not shave ready.
 
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Two things to mention to that video.....

1. I wouldnt do a sharpness test with a piece of paper,
we all know that the edge of a razor is very fine and using it that way isnt good...

2. i Agree with Rusen that it seems not honed well enough, you can see it when trying on arm hair


Another thing is that in general it is always possible to use a 2 Stone tecnique as Gabe also mentions here.
Bur mostly the stones are not fast enought! This means you either need a lot of time or you should use another stone.

Actually i only found two stones which are my faves working with a 2 Stone tecnique, one is the Barian Frankonian, the other one is a Coticule.

I cant agree on the statement that slates in general are quite fast when used after Bevel Set (more explicit mentioning Thuringian Stones, Dragons Tongue, etc.) They could do it, but then with time an pressure....they are not mentioned to be used like that. Shure if anybody wants to, then he should do it....i won't....
 
Wait till you try the Kuro Sebastian. I have had a few discussions with that guy regarding his paper cutting. Suffice it to say that I would not use that method - I believe it will damage the edge. It may not be a huge amount of damage, but why go backwards?
 
After watching this vid, i think, my razors are more sharp after 1k stones, when i watch him "shaving" his arm.

2 Stone honing works with any stone i own (that is fine enough), even with a black Arkansas, just needs a "little" more time.

Using paper for sharpening tests, even makes kitchenknifes a little dull, after many attempts. For razors it is just stupid, and can instantly destroy the edge, depending on the used paper.

I got nothing to say to the Imperia Roccia hone, never tryed.
 
[7:25-7:37]
--What size is this you got here?
--Two and a half by seven, which to me is about the perfect size. Some people want 'em three inches, I don't find the need for it.

I enjoyed that moment.
 
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I don't like the video at all. He says "ours" when referring to the stones so he is a seller trying to promote them seems like.

He also has 1 coticule(probably a slow one that's average/below average) and a black arkie(he doesn't seem the type to surface it properly). I bet he would be saying the same crap if using a welsh slate. Give him a Jnat or a YG Escher or a Vosgienne/Lune (even a frankonian if talking speed) and he would eat his words about the cheap stones he is using being fast or even good.

If they were such high performance stones they wouldn't be $30 for a big slab. I have yet to see them be proven better than a purple Llyn Melynlln, this video included.

Ignorance is bliss I guess. If you don't even know what a good stone is, almost anything seems great. You mention beginners raving about them, same deal, they don't know what a good stone is of course they like them.

Just a bad video IMO. I'm not convinced I'll buy a 12-15k roccia and it even be close to a thuri in fineness or cutting ability. My guess is they are like a slightly faster C12k or welsh slate(remember when people raved about both those?)

I could have done everything in that video(including bevel set) on my frankonian in like 5 minutes or possibly less. I did not like the information provided. He is ignorant and trying to act like he knows what is best honing wise when he owns all of 3 stones....

Also I reckon 90% of my finishers can follow a 1k better than what's in the video. The soapy water also makes his 1k scratches way shallower and easier to remove. I could do it with no added lubricant.

Someone throw that man a 5x1 Escher to shut him up about this Roccia.

Seems to me (as Gar1 pointed out) you're ranting about a stone that you have NEVER owned or tried.

A couple of guys post a video about a stone they sell, yes, it's obvious they have an agenda. I'm sure either one of them would admit it. The question begs to be asked, what is your agenda? You go on and on about a stone that, again, you don't own and you haven't tried. All the while, you're pushing name brand stones that cost BIG bucks.

You say that the Imperia la Roccia can't be a good stone. How did you come to that conclusion? Eschers and Thuris are natural slate stones. So is the La Roccia. Eschers and Thuris are some of the most sought after stones. (I'm not saying that they are, but) How do you know that these stones don't compair with their high-end counterparts? Oh, wait, YOU DON'T KNOW! You've never tried them!

I'll refrain from addressing the paper cutting as I have no experience in the matter.

What at I find sad is this... This is my first time contributing to this forum and I feel the need to call someone out on their blaitent hypocrisy. Is this indicative of this forum in general?
 
After watching this vid, i think, my razors are more sharp after 1k stones, when i watch him "shaving" his arm.

2 Stone honing works with any stone i own (that is fine enough), even with a black Arkansas, just needs a "little" more time.

Using paper for sharpening tests, even makes kitchenknifes a little dull, after many attempts. For razors it is just stupid, and can instantly destroy the edge, depending on the used paper.

I got nothing to say to the Imperia Roccia hone, never tryed.

I'll try to refrain from calling anyone stupid, if you might do the same.
 
bigeasy1: You mean...we act like professionals???

Well that's just crazy talk!
 
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Seems to me (as Gar1 pointed out) you're ranting about a stone that you have NEVER owned or tried.

A couple of guys post a video about a stone they sell, yes, it's obvious they have an agenda. I'm sure either one of them would admit it. The question begs to be asked, what is your agenda? You go on and on about a stone that, again, you don't own and you haven't tried. All the while, you're pushing name brand stones that cost BIG bucks.

You say that the Imperia la Roccia can't be a good stone. How did you come to that conclusion? Eschers and Thuris are natural slate stones. So is the La Roccia. Eschers and Thuris are some of the most sought after stones. (I'm not saying that they are, but) How do you know that these stones don't compair with their high-end counterparts? Oh, wait, YOU DON'T KNOW! You've never tried them!

I'll refrain from addressing the paper cutting as I have no experience in the matter.

What at I find sad is this... This is my first time contributing to this forum and I feel the need to call someone out on their blaitent hypocrisy. Is this indicative of this forum in general?

Well put. I think most folks try and understand this art/discipline/hobby and interact with good will. Once and a while you come across someone trollish who only wants to disrupt and grandstand. Best ignore them otherwise your giving them the microphone and spotlight that is their raison d'etre in the first place.

Thanks for your post.
 
So, back to the stone and video, maybe these guys should post a comment about what their intent was. They seemed to be having fun, maybe promoting, but it appears they were not trying to make the razor shave ready, as much as testing the stone.
Cheers,
 
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