I'm Very Afraid

[Darth Scandalous]

Thank you, Matt. I hope I don't skew your meaning. As I understand your post, a fine (fine quality) Ark. is comparable to a JNAT progression, with much of the weight borne by the man sitting at the rock. If that's the case, I wont be running to pick up the best Ark. I can. I would first experiment with a variety of Tomos, or as I understand @Titleist, perhaps with different Komas--or combinations of the two.

I think you got what I was trying to say. Look, I don't have any Jnats, and frankly I've only shaved off two Jnat edges, one from a fairly respected ebay seller and one from Alfredo (Doc226). I can say that Afredo's edge beats my best ark edges in keenness, no doubt. Not by a mile but enough that it's perceptible. My best ark edges, though, do seem to be marginally more comfortable-- that is to say that I get less feedback from the aftershave after a 3.5 pass shave. I have, with a lot of work, made an edge or two that can compete with Doc's edge for sharpness/keenness but they were not nearly as nice to shave with as his.

Other folks with far more experience honing than I seem to agree that a good ark and a good Jnat will each get you in the same ballpark, at least. Again, I can't say how a good ark will compare to *your* stone and *your* naguras. For comparison, the other Jnat edge I had, while serviceable, wasn't in the same league.

On the other hand, at the risk of being an enabler, you can get a 6x2 "Dan's Black" for about $100. I haven't priced out Komas lately but you get the point. Smallish coticules are another option for not a lot of money. I suspect that the best examples of any of these stones will get you to a similar place-- but the journey will be different.

My actual advice, for what it's worth, is to spend some time experimenting between tomo slurry and water only. Water only can be challenging on some stones but you may be able to push the edge a little further. You may also discover that you don't want to shave with that edge, or a least not all the time.

 

[Steve56]

I dream of a stone that I can finish my edge on using only water. I don't know if that exists.

Tons of them of all kinds. Many JNats need a clear water finish after slurry prefinish or fine synth. All synths, the Suehiro Gokumyo 20k comes to mind. Thuringians. A few coticules. Some slates.

 

[Wid]

Tons of them of all kinds. Many JNats need a clear water finish after slurry prefinish or fine synth. All synths, the Suehiro Gokumyo 20k comes to mind. Thuringians. A few coticules. Some slates.

Then you have the Charnley, Idwals and other UK stones. I have one Jnat right now and have owned a few. They are very nice finishers but most of what’s been mentioned are too.

A good Coticule edge is hard to beat.

 

[GreazyThumbs]

IMO, the only stone better suited than a high end JNAT in good hands would be a True Black Ark finished by equally capable hands. To that point, to me it is probably not worth chasing the rabbit for a better edge. If you like honing and treat it as a hobby and want to try additional stones and methods, than that is a different thing all together. You are paying for the experience and learning, but you may never find a better edge. My recommendation is to try some additional nagura pairings with your base stone, JNAT honing IMO is the most fun due to the use of nagura and tomo's. Best of Luck!

 

[Steve56]

 

[SparkyLB]

Thanks so much everyone for the well-articulated, rational words of experience and for looking out for my best interests. On the plus side, there's nothing but knowledge to attain. On the other side, well--not one of you have made things easier.

Of course, I kid.

Happily, I enjoy honing very much, and can only benefit from trying out all the less-expensive options first. In a perfect world I will become terribly proficient, and only then treat myself to a stone to which I'll be drawn to by experience. That is a pipe dream today, but will be a reality over time.

Like the silly analogy above about the Ferrari, when I earn the rights to have one, I'll buy one. I will not chase unicorns and rainbows in the interim. I have everything I need to bring my skills to a higher level.

Now the note-taking, record-making, and ground breaking begins.

Life is good. I've been gifted a great foundation of knowledge, and an outstanding point of view regarding patience, perseverance, and a positive outlook no matter what the outcome of my endeavors. Failures are not defeats but teachable moments. Successes are only beginnings to something even better.

 

[cotedupy]

Loadsa good advice here already obviously, but I'll chuck some opinions in for good measure too. I was probably slightly unusual in that I had most of the best natural finishing types already before I started honing razors, so was coming to all of them as a complete beginner, rather than knowing how to hone well and then building a collection from there. So perhaps my thoughts on some of the more well known naturals may have some relevance...

---

Thuris really are excellent razor stones. They're incredibly easy to use and get excellent results from quickly. A perfect stone to begin with, alas with the least beginner-friendly prices.

Arks I did/do find a little trickier, less intuitive. Definitely a 'work up to getting one later' kind of stone I think.

I've had a number of Charnleys and Idwals that are superb finishing stones. I'd say Charnleys are marginally easier to use.

You have a honyama jnat already, so presumably looking for something else. Note though that you can use Japanese nagura on any other finishing stone too.

Various other kinds of slates can often be had very cheaply indeed, and more often than not will finish a razor to a good level. They can require a little patience and understanding of the particular stone, but looked at another way - that kind of thing is going to be a good learning experience. Slates are generally quite slow, and would be a very good option for using nagura on to kick things off.

Cotis vary widely and the really good ones won't finish a razor particularly well . But finer examples do provide good edges, I'd say about a third of the cotis I've had would be razor stones. And even these finer ones are still relatively quick in comparison to other finishers, which makes them pretty easy to use if you get the right stone.

---

My personal opinion if you were looking for another natural stone would be to get a Charnley or Coti. And also - a cheap diamond plate for flattening things, and raising 'tomo' slurry from the stone itself. You might find someone here could send you an old worn atoma sheet for free, I would myself if I were in the US.

 

[Eben Stone]

After reading for nearly 5 months...

Wow, that's a lot of reading.

I could go Shapton (after bevel set) to just par 30K (or maybe TO 30K)

For my very first honing experiments, I bought Shapton 1k and 3k, after reading for nearly 5 hours. Haha. I honed 5 razors and I was able to shave with 4 of them. The other one doesn't have scales so it's questionable if the edge is any good. Now I can hear the 10k and 30k calling my name.

 

[Tomo]

Resistance is futile.

 

[JPO]

I think the versatility of a jnat is hard to compete with. You can fine tune your edges to where you like them. I usually finish on a light slurry to get a smooth, but still sharp enough edge.
So if you have a diamond plate for flattening, and maybe to generate slurry. A 2-4 k synthetic, you have a really nice setup. The naguras is just a bonus, althoughi think you can never have enough tomos.
A standard grade coticule, followed by a surgical black from Dan's is a really nice change. I usually end up with an edge that is to sharp for what I need it to do. I have less control with these stones, but I like the challenge.

The price of these jnat's seem to have gone up considerably since I got mine. If I get more stones I think I will need to go through Japanese auction sites. It is a gamble.

 

[SparkyLB]

Wow, that's a lot of reading. LOL. And boy are my eyes tired!


For my very first honing experiments, I bought Shapton 1k and 3k, after reading for nearly 5 hours. Haha. I honed 5 razors and I was able to shave with 4 of them. The other one doesn't have scales so it's questionable if the edge is any good. Now I can hear the 10k and 30k calling my name.

What was your impression of the experience, assuming you topped out on a 3K? Was it at all comfortable, or more like--it shaved? Which Shapton did you decide on? Glass? HR? Other?

I'm glad to hear of your progress.

Resistance is futile.

Seems like the truth, sir. After all my talk yesterday, I found a LaLune on the BST for an offer I couldn't refuse. The original plan (to experiment with different Tomos and Komas) is still in place, but the LaLune is in the drawer now, for when I'm ready. If it doesn't work out, the price was right enough--it can always be paid forward.

I think the versatility of a jnat is hard to compete with. You can fine tune your edges to where you like them. I usually finish on a light slurry to get a smooth, but still sharp enough edge.
So if you have a diamond plate for flattening, and maybe to generate slurry. A 2-4 k synthetic, you have a really nice setup. The naguras is just a bonus, althoughi think you can never have enough tomos.
A standard grade coticule, followed by a surgical black from Dan's is a really nice change. I usually end up with an edge that is to sharp for what I need it to do. I have less control with these stones, but I like the challenge.

The price of these jnat's seem to have gone up considerably since I got mine. If I get more stones I think I will need to go through Japanese auction sites. It is a gamble.

I strongly agree with your first sentence. That smooth sharp edge IMO is what separates the JNAT slurry progression from diamonds. Diamonds will cut and produce a light saber for sure, but I'm learning that sharpness is only part of the equation. Smooth is huge. Comfort is a commodity.

Currently I have a Naniwa 1K SS for bevel setting, and a Wakasa Lv. 5 base stone with Botan, Tenyjou, Mejiero, Koma and two different Tomos.

From my hours of reading (that's for you, Eben Stone) I gather I could progress through synthetics and finish on a JNAT base stone with slurry.

For now, I'm going to obtain more Koma and Tomo and experiment/take notes. That's the plan.

 

[JPO]

What was your impression of the experience, assuming you topped out on a 3K? Was it at all comfortable, or more like--it shaved? Which Shapton did you decide on? Glass? HR? Other?

I'm glad to hear of your progress.

Seems like the truth, sir. After all my talk yesterday, I found a LaLune on the BST for an offer I couldn't refuse. The original plan (to experiment with different Tomos and Komas) is still in place, but the LaLune is in the drawer now, for when I'm ready. If it doesn't work out, the price was right enough--it can always be paid forward.

I strongly agree with your first sentence. That smooth sharp edge IMO is what separates the JNAT slurry progression from diamonds. Diamonds will cut and produce a light saber for sure, but I'm learning that sharpness is only part of the equation. Smooth is huge. Comfort is a commodity.

Currently I have a Naniwa 1K SS for bevel setting, and a Wakasa Lv. 5 base stone with Botan, Tenyjou, Mejiero, Koma and two different Tomos.

From my hours of reading (that's for you, Eben Stone) I gather I could progress through synthetics and finish on a JNAT base stone with slurry.

For now, I'm going to obtain more Koma and Tomo and experiment/take notes. That's the plan.

I am currently in a coticule period. I shave every day. A three pass shave with a ultra keen edge is too much for my skin to handle. You can shave like a ninja with these edges with room for mistakes.
Not trying to influence you
I would probably get some midrange synthetic stones to make the jnat experience a little easier. I found the 1k to a nagura progression a little challenging.

 

[SparkyLB]

I am currently in a coticule period. I shave every day. A three pass shave with a ultra keen edge is too much for my skin to handle. You can shave like a ninja with these edges with room for mistakes.
Not trying to influence you
I would probably get some midrange synthetic stones to make the jnat experience a little easier. I found the 1k to a nagura progression a little challenging.

What grit synth(s) did you use to bridge the gap?

 

[JPO]

What grit synth(s) did you use to bridge the gap?

I prefer to jump from a shapton gs 6k to koma slurry. 3k to a coarser asano nagura also work. If I go all the way to 8k I only do a thin tomo slurry. I seem to get better results if I stop at 6k or 3k. I am not sure why. 8k to coticule works better for me.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

I worked with a guy, who’s dream was to retire and play the senior PGA tour. He told his wife, that there were only so many “good” shots in a set of golf clubs. Once you used them up, one had to buy a new set. A better, more expensive set.

I doubt his wife believe this.

We all know this is not true, as we know there are no magic stones. If you want to master honing, learn to fully set a bevel on a 1k. FULLY SET the bevel from heel to toe.

Refine the 1k bevel with diamond slurry on your Jnat and get a screaming shaving edge off it.

Until you can do those 2 things, no new stone will make you happy.

I once bought a pristine matching pair of Ivory Sheffield razors from an old guy who haunted the fora. He said, he set the bevels on a Harbor freight diamond plate, refined the bevel on a barber hone, and stropped on chrome oxide and an old leather belt. They were great shaving edges.

It’s not the stone.

 

[Steve56]

Marty, if that were true we’d only eat one potato chip - Everyone knows that the next one is better!

 

[Eben Stone]

What was your impression of the experience, assuming you topped out on a 3K? Was it at all comfortable, or more like--it shaved? Which Shapton did you decide on? Glass? HR? Other?

I used Shapton HR 1k, 3k, then lapping film 4.5k, 8k, 14k, 60k, 500k.

Sadly, I don't remember if I used balsa after that. They all passed the forearm hair test but not silently.

In my very limited experience, the edges I put on my 4 junk razors are shave ready, and can achieve a great shave (I'm at shave #45 so by great I mean DFS, that's the best I can achieve ATM). I followed the directions of The Method. They shaved just as good as my other 3 shave ready razors I got from other members here.

 

[SparkyLB]

I used Shapton HR 1k, 3k, then lapping film 4.5k, 8k, 14k, 60k, 500k.

Sadly, I don't remember if I used balsa after that. They all passed the forearm hair test but not silently.

In my very limited experience, the edges I put on my 4 junk razors are shave ready, and can achieve a great shave (I'm at shave #45 so by great I mean DFS, that's the best I can achieve ATM). I followed the directions of The Method. They shaved just as good as my other 3 shave ready razors I got from other members here.

Ah. I took your other post too literally. I'm often guilty of that. My mentor had me set a bevel with a 1K synthetic (I used a Naniwa SS), then shave just my cheeks to show me that a properly-set bevel will shave. He was right. A well-set bevel will shave hair, alas not terribly comfortably.

From your post #28, I took your meaning to be you were shaving off a 3K edge. I know it's possible, but I wouldn't grease up on the alum after that.

 

[Empire straights]

I think you got what I was trying to say. Look, I don't have any Jnats, and frankly I've only shaved off two Jnat edges, one from a fairly respected ebay seller and one from Alfredo (Doc226). I can say that Afredo's edge beats my best ark edges in keenness, no doubt. Not by a mile but enough that it's perceptible. My best ark edges, though, do seem to be marginally more comfortable-- that is to say that I get less feedback from the aftershave after a 3.5 pass shave. I have, with a lot of work, made an edge or two that can compete with Doc's edge for sharpness/keenness but they were not nearly as nice to shave with as his.

Other folks with far more experience honing than I seem to agree that a good ark and a good Jnat will each get you in the same ballpark, at least. Again, I can't say how a good ark will compare to *your* stone and *your* naguras. For comparison, the other Jnat edge I had, while serviceable, wasn't in the same league.

On the other hand, at the risk of being an enabler, you can get a 6x2 "Dan's Black" for about $100. I haven't priced out Komas lately but you get the point. Smallish coticules are another option for not a lot of money. I suspect that the best examples of any of these stones will get you to a similar place-- but the journey will be different.

My actual advice, for what it's worth, is to spend some time experimenting between tomo slurry and water only. Water only can be challenging on some stones but you may be able to push the edge a little further. You may also discover that you don't want to shave with that edge, or a least not all the time.

I got a large black ark pocket stone from them (4.5"x1.5") and I was able keep a razor good to good on it for a long time. I use it while traveling but I use it on axes, knives, chisels, everything. I think with shipping it was $45. For $55 I got a Primitive cut translucent that is 4.5"x5" and is plenty but enough to sharpen anything on. Both of those are fanatic options on a budget. Every stone I've got from them was top shelf, heirloom quality stone and Kim is a charm to work with. I think it's always worth it for newbies or anyone to email them and ask questions. Kim replies pretty quickly too.

 

[Empire straights]

Loadsa good advice here already obviously, but I'll chuck some opinions in for good measure too. I was probably slightly unusual in that I had most of the best natural finishing types already before I started honing razors, so was coming to all of them as a complete beginner, rather than knowing how to hone well and then building a collection from there. So perhaps my thoughts on some of the more well known naturals may have some relevance...

---

Thuris really are excellent razor stones. They're incredibly easy to use and get excellent results from quickly. A perfect stone to begin with, alas with the least beginner-friendly prices.

Arks I did/do find a little trickier, less intuitive. Definitely a 'work up to getting one later' kind of stone I think.

I've had a number of Charnleys and Idwals that are superb finishing stones. I'd say Charnleys are marginally easier to use.

You have a honyama jnat already, so presumably looking for something else. Note though that you can use Japanese nagura on any other finishing stone too.

Various other kinds of slates can often be had very cheaply indeed, and more often than not will finish a razor to a good level. They can require a little patience and understanding of the particular stone, but looked at another way - that kind of thing is going to be a good learning experience. Slates are generally quite slow, and would be a very good option for using nagura on to kick things off.

Cotis vary widely and the really good ones won't finish a razor particularly well . But finer examples do provide good edges, I'd say about a third of the cotis I've had would be razor stones. And even these finer ones are still relatively quick in comparison to other finishers, which makes them pretty easy to use if you get the right stone.

---

My personal opinion if you were looking for another natural stone would be to get a Charnley or Coti. And also - a cheap diamond plate for flattening things, and raising 'tomo' slurry from the stone itself. You might find someone here could send you an old worn atoma sheet for free, I would myself if I were in the US.

For ease of use and the final effect it has on an edge I say +1 on Charnleys, llyn Idwals ARE amazing but not all of them are razor stones(but those just so happen to be the best knife stones, I did an axe yesterday too). If price was the issue a Primitive cut from dans is probably the most economical route.