I'm still not sure what bread knifing is

[SavantStrike]

I've heard it referenced before, but I'm not sure what exactly it is meant to accomplish. Some posts say it is done to remove chips, others have said that it is done to remove a frown from a blade before it gets a new edge. The only thing that I know for certain is bread knifing is slamming the blade edge on a hone or blunt object. Can someone shed some light on chip and frown removal.

 

[professorchaos]

Bread knifing is something you don't want to do. Take a nice, sharp straight razor and a hone. With the razor perpendicular to the hone, mimic the slicing motion you would use to cut a slice off of a loaf of bread. That nice, sharp straight becomes as dull as the bottom of a spoon.

 

[Dubbya]

I've always understood it(and employed as such) as a last resort for a blade with an edge that is beyond hope. It's sort of like formating a hard drive. You don't want to do it unless there are no other options.

 

[professorchaos]

I have honed a few hundred vintage straight razors and not found a single one that would have benefited from being bread knifed. Of course some took more work than others and a couple took a lot of work. If extreme measures are required, why not go whole hog and put it in an electric knife sharpener?

 

[Thebigspendur]

Personally, this idea of breadknifing came up and I think that's unfortunate because people now think of it as a honing technique and it really isn't.

Its some that someone who is highly skilled in restoration and honing might want to consider only if they have a blade that is in very bad shape, usually with really really bad frown. I've only done it one time with all then razors I've had and it was a case where it had really bad wear on the edge in one spot but otherwise in good shape and it worked out well.

 

[GsSixgun]

Bread knifing is restoration, not honing, it takes work just to get back to the honing stage after bread knifing an edge...

Basically if you are asking what it is, most likely you should not be employing it...

There has been mention of using a light bread knifing stoke to dull the edge before honing, or like in The Perfect Edge Video to remove micro chips while honing... Two absolutely different things that should not be confused...

Many people are very scared of trying it on damaged blades, because it takes time and talent to bring the edge back... But it does work and it works very well if done correctly...

But again it is a restoration technique not a honing trick...

 

[SavantStrike]

Well... after doing what you guys have described, it sounds like there would be zero edge left. At that point is it necessary to put a completely new one at a low grit like 325 or 600 before even moving up to a bevel at 1200?

 

[GsSixgun]

Well... after doing what you guys have described, it sounds like there would be zero edge left. At that point is it necessary to put a completely new one at a low grit like 325 or 600 before even moving up to a bevel at 1200?

Yes you have to rebuild the "pre-bevel" first...

You are starting with a ] edge and you need to get to a > so the technique I came up with some time ago basically cuts off those corners pretty fast then you have some extensive bevel work to do...

Again this is Restoration work which I do a lot of, keep in mind many people believe that you can take out frowns, waves and chips by a ton of normal honing, which you can, but you will not get as nice or as even a bevel after even more work.... There is nothing that says you can't sit there doing circles or Japanese honing for hours to try and get the same result...

You have to remove the metal one way or another to get the edge even again, and in my opinion you remove less, and get a better edge with bread knifing the edge back to even.. YMMV of course, and since this is an advanced technique it might vary quite a bit....

 

[SavantStrike]

Yes you have to rebuild the "pre-bevel" first...

You are starting with a ] edge and you need to get to a > so the technique I came up with some time ago basically cuts off those corners pretty fast then you have some extensive bevel work to do...

Again this is Restoration work which I do a lot of, keep in mind many people believe that you can take out frowns, waves and chips by a ton of normal honing, which you can, but you will not get as nice or as even a bevel after even more work.... There is nothing that says you can't sit there doing circles or Japanese honing for hours to try and get the same result...

You have to remove the metal one way or another to get the edge even again, and in my opinion you remove less, and get a better edge with bread knifing the edge back to even.. YMMV of course, and since this is an advanced technique it might vary quite a bit....

Now I want to find a beater with a frown and take it the cleaners. Maybe I should hold off a bit longer though. I'm still pretty new at honing and at this point I'm just enjoying the process .

If I decide to do this though, I like your idea of the bread knifing and then pre-beveling the straight. You're saying a 220 grit stone is a good stone to start this pre-bevel work on? Could I take it from there to 1200?

 

[gugi]

i first did it on a razor with a frown and a couple with large chips - figured out that's the fastest way to get the metal out.
of course then you need to set a new bevel and glen has a trick to speeding up this part a bit by first using few layers of tape.

this can be used on 99% of the ebay razors, and i'm of the opinion that it should be the standard way people need to learn honing these blades.
i'm pretty much sick of getting 'shave-ready' or 'near shave-ready' razors with chips on the edges that have not been removed and need to be redone completely.

breadknifing to remove the usual chips and oxidation on the edge (~half bevel-width) has the advantage that there is no false positives on when to leave the 1k level. A thumbnail test or magnification can do this as well, but apparently most new honers don't know how to use them properly.

and, of course, breadknifing a razor with properly set bevel is rather stupid.

 

[SavantStrike]

i first did it on a razor with a frown and a couple with large chips - figured out that's the fastest way to get the metal out.
of course then you need to set a new bevel and glen has a trick to speeding up this part a bit by first using few layers of tape.

this can be used on 99% of the ebay razors, and i'm of the opinion that it should be the standard way people need to learn honing these blades.
i'm pretty much sick of getting 'shave-ready' or 'near shave-ready' razors with chips on the edges that have not been removed and need to be redone completely.

breadknifing to remove the usual chips and oxidation on the edge (~half bevel-width) has the advantage that there is no false positives on when to leave the 1k level. A thumbnail test or magnification can do this as well, but apparently most new honers don't know how to use them properly.

and, of course, breadknifing a razor with properly set bevel is rather stupid.

The chips you're talking about here sound like they are large enough to see without magnification (when honing is first started). To me those are fairly large chips. How about small chips (only able to be seen under magnification). I was under the impression that extra time at the 1k stage removed small chips (especially on a rapid stone like a DMT D8E. Is this not true?

In other words, are you saying that people get a blade with visible chips and simply try to hone it until they can't see the chips any more and then they just start at the next grit (even though if they were to use magnification the chips would clearly still be there)? Or are you saying that even small chips (say 1/32") should be treated by bread knifing the blade first?

 

[gugi]

Here's the edge with small chips under 200 magnification. The chips are likely not visible without magnification, but that edge is no good

I'd probably take them out on 1000 grit hone, but breadknifing would work just as well.

Here are some worse ones from the same blade

And here's how the edge should look like when honed right

These are not my pictures, I have plenty of mine as well, and some would illustrate better how a 1/3-1/2 bevel width chip or oxidation may be hard to see without magnification, but I don't have time to look for them now.

What I'm saying is that plenty of people leave these chips in, while if they'd breadknife the razor they have a much better chance of putting a decent edge on it since there will be less chance that they prematurely stop honing on the coarse stones.

 

[SavantStrike]

Here's the edge with small chips under 200 magnification. The chips are likely not visible without magnification, but that edge is no good

I'd probably take them out on 1000 grit hone, but breadknifing would work just as well.

Here are some worse ones from the same blade

And here's how the edge should look like when honed right

These are not my pictures, I have plenty of mine as well, and some would illustrate better how a 1/3-1/2 bevel width chip or oxidation may be hard to see without magnification, but I don't have time to look for them now.

What I'm saying is that plenty of people leave these chips in, while if they'd breadknife the razor they have a much better chance of putting a decent edge on it since there will be less chance that they prematurely stop honing on the coarse stones.

Those pics are extremely helpful! Are they of a blade that has been "honed" in any way shape or form (i.e. a botched attempt) or are they just of a ebay special in it's natural state?

And are you saying that bread knifing isn't the only option for small chips, just that it is a way to guarantee that those chips were removed.

At what point is it truly a good idea to take it to the next level?

 

[gugi]

it doesn't look like the blade was honed recently on the first chips, when i get honed blades with such chipping they have clear striations from the hones, but that doesn't make them good for shaving.

the objective is pretty clear, how to get to it is different, and what glen has been saying is that breadknifing is very efficient and i agree with him.

i am also saying that if it were used by aspiring edge restorers there will be fewer lousy edges floating around. the chips on the first picture would be completely gone in 5 strokes on a fast 1000 grit hone (assuming typical steel).

the metal has to be removed one way or another, there's no question about it. i'd rather the honer overshoot and remove too much and then spend more time reestablishing the bevel than not spending enough time and producing a bad edge.

 

[SavantStrike]

it doesn't look like the blade was honed recently on the first chips, when i get honed blades with such chipping they have clear striations from the hones, but that doesn't make them good for shaving.

the objective is pretty clear, how to get to it is different, and what glen has been saying is that breadknifing is very efficient and i agree with him.

i am also saying that if it were used by aspiring edge restorers there will be fewer lousy edges floating around. the chips on the first picture would be completely gone in 5 strokes on a fast 1000 grit hone (assuming typical steel).

the metal has to be removed one way or another, there's no question about it. i'd rather the honer overshoot and remove too much and then spend more time reestablishing the bevel than not spending enough time and producing a bad edge.

I guess where it makes me a bit nervous is after those 5 strokes in a 1k DMT. Wouldn't I need to spend another couple of hundred strokes restoring a bevel on the same 1k stone?

What do these strokes look like? A 90 degree angle where the blade is pushed sideways across the hone, or a literal sawing motion. I'm concerned the sawing motion could injure the DMT...

I really appreciate all the help in this thread. I'm learning a lot right now.

 

[gugi]

yeah slicing strokes, like slicing bread, if you do it laterally you may damage the blade badly - the steel doesn't have much support in that direction so it can break off. you can't damage the dmt that thing is covered with diamonds. the only way to damage it is to pry them off the surface which you can't do without some serious effort and destroying the razor.

and yeah you may have to spend a lot of strokes on the dmt after that, here's the guide
http://straightrazorplace.com/srpwiki/index.php/Honing_a_damaged_blade

how much work depends on how thick is the blade when the chips are gone and how abrasive resistant the steel it.

 

[SavantStrike]

yeah slicing strokes, like slicing bread, if you do it laterally you may damage the blade badly - the steel doesn't have much support in that direction so it can break off. you can't damage the dmt that thing is covered with diamonds. the only way to damage it is to pry them off the surface which you can't do without some serious effort and destroying the razor.

and yeah you may have to spend a lot of strokes on the dmt after that, here's the guide
http://straightrazorplace.com/srpwiki/index.php/Honing_a_damaged_blade

how much work depends on how thick is the blade when the chips are gone and how abrasive resistant the steel it.

Nice!

But why does the article say not to use the X stroke when establishing the new edge? Would the X stroke be okay? I know I'm all questions...

 

[gugi]

uhm i think he does say to use x - anything else is to speed it up.
but feel free to ask the man himself - the original thread that the wiki used was by glen.