If you do it right the first time - Bevel Setting Clarification

[huntmol]

I know that there are a lot of honemeisters or aspiring honemeisters on this forum, but I'm not one of them. I bought hones for one reason - to be able to keep a sharp edge on my razors without having to send them out. I'm not a razor collector, either - I've only got 3 razors and they all see use on a weekly basis. I haven't been doing this for very long, and I know there are many out there with superior honing skills. But I feel that all this breadknifing and resetting the bevel should only be done on practice razors and ones that require extensive repair. Let me know if I'm off base here.

So, in summary, I just wanted to clarify:

If you set the bevel properly on the initial honing, shouldn't the razor be set for life?
Barring any unfortunate accidents, if you use it regularly and refresh the edge every few months, you shouldn't ever have to drop below 8k w/ water, right?

 

[greatgoogamooga]

Generally I agree with the last statement. However, that is in a perfect world where your touch-ups and stropping are perfect. Stropping, with or without paste, rounds out the bevel. If you let it go too long, you will need to hone it and an 8k is a slow cutter. Poor honing technique can lead to frowns, toe wear and uneven spines. In these cases, you need to drop to a lower grit to correct these problems.

I'm fairly new to honing, but I see evidence of these things in the ebay specials I come across. Some of them have a good edge and I figure it shouldn't take much to get them shave ready. Then I look at them under the scope and see small chips and rounded bevels that tell me it's time to drop down to 4k at least.

Goog

 

[professorchaos]

Depends on the state of the edge when you refresh it. If you let the razor go too long when it needs a touch up, you'll at least need to refresh the bevel on something coarser than an 8K. Sometimes it is just easier to give it 2 or 3 laps on a DMT 1.2K than spending 10+ minutes trying to get it right on something finer.

 

[azmark]

But I feel that all this breadknifing and resetting the bevel should only be done on practice razors and ones that require extensive repair. Let me know if I'm off base here.

I don't know about the whole bread knifing thing. I'd love to see a razor that's needed it because I had a couple razors that I've honed from a 5/8 to 9/16 and I would never do something so drastic.

So, in summary, I just wanted to clarify:

If you set the bevel properly on the initial honing, shouldn't the razor be set for life?
Barring any unfortunate accidents, if you use it regularly and refresh the edge every few months, you shouldn't ever have to drop below 8k w/ water, right?[/QUOTE]

I'd like to add to Henry's response on my part that 2nd bevels (taped) wear down and that is another reason to reset the bevel.

 

[Bart]

I think a lot of confusion among aspiring razor sharpeners is caused by a lack of clearly defined terminology.

breadknifing: a bit of a weird term for grinding the blade, with the edge down, on a coarse hone. Can be used to restore the proper curvature on a razor with a frown, or to rapidly get past a damaged area (corrosion or a missing chip).
After breadknifing, a cutting bevel needs to be reestablished.
This requires a coarse stone and a decent understanding of edge geometry. At any rate, not a normal sharpening job, but belonging to the field of razor repair.

Bevel repair: the reestablishing of a correct (V-shaped) edge geometry on a cutting tool. Is normally already done at the factory, and normally never needs to be redone, unless some severe calamity happens with the razor. Restoration of old razors that were neglected for many years often requires bevel repair.

Bevel setting:slightly changing the shape of the bevel to meet a chosen bevel angle. For instance, if a razor was honed with tape attached to the spine, and the owner wants to change it to an untaped regime, the bevel angle needs to be reset to that lower angle, before finishing or refining the edge has any chance at success.

Touch-up:"Touching up" is quick action to revive an edge that seems to have lost some of its original brilliance. A touch-up does not bother with the condition of the bevel at all. It just aims to restore the very edge. Pasted strops are very efficient for doing this, because they are able to fold around the edge a bit. Doing so, an extremely small amount of steel is removed from the very edge with each touch-up. With a good touch-up regime a razor can provide 100's of good shaves.

Bevel Correction:Eventually, touch-up will no longer be able to revive the edge. This process is fueled by 2 principles: 1. Microscopically small chips are being teared off the very edge, from the impact with coarse beard hairs. Eventually this small scale damage builds up to a point where a solid layer of steel needs to be removed from the entire bevel faces.
2. Pasted strops introduce convexity into the shape of the bevel. Eventually the convexity will build up to cause the bevel angle near the very edge to be too steep for a comfortable shave.
Due to those 2 principles the razor will stop responding to touch-ups, until the bevel is corrected to its flawless and flat, original shape.

Downstroke: A silly term, introduce by myself, to promote one or two strokes over a glass object (beer bottle) to force a razor to fail at shaving arm hair. While the motion is the same as with breadknifing, NO downward pressure and no abrasive surface is used. Apart from the motion, both terms are completely unrelated, yet often confused. Starting out with a pre-dulled edge facilitates bevel correction, because it makes it easy to recognize when the job is done. Namely: as soon as the razor starts shaving arm hair again. And, from the viewpoint of someone that hones razors for others, it assures me that the new edge will not be made of steel that was tired from numerous "pasted" attempts to make a bad bevel shave well.

Kind regards,
Bart.

 

[riooso]

If you shave with a razor for over a month and don't touch it up...it is to late in my book. I refresh after the 6th shave and that involves dropping back to
DMT8EE for about 8 laps then going up to finish. Wait to long and you will start rounding the bevel. When you drop back and touch it up if you do not hit every point of the bevel it will eventually round off. YMMV. Some will think it is to much but I kept a razor going for over a year. After a year you will be ready to start establishing your own bevels.

Later,
Richard

 

[Bart]

If you shave with a razor for over a month and don't touch it up...it is to late in my book. I refresh after the 6th shave and that involves dropping back to
DMT8EE for about 8 laps then going up to finish. Wait to long and you will start rounding the bevel. When you drop back and touch it up if you do not hit every point of the bevel it will eventually round off. YMMV. Some will think it is to much but I kept a razor going for over a year. After a year you will be ready to start establishing your own bevels.

Later,
Richard

What you do, is a bit of preemptive bevel flattening on your (fast) DMT-EE, with each touch-up. Which I consider a very smart approach, as it will probably keep your bevel in shape forever.

Kind regards,
Bart.

 

[riooso]

I agree with you but using a diamond plate is frowned upon by a lot of people. I actually picked up this tip from Joel a couple of years back along with a 4 sided paddle and it let me learn to shave.

Take Care,
Richard

 

[professorchaos]

I don't know about the whole bread knifing thing. I'd love to see a razor that's needed it because I had a couple razors that I've honed from a 5/8 to 9/16 and I would never do something so drastic.

Thanks for mentioning bread knifing razors. I've had plenty in bad shape and quite a few in terrible shape. Never needed to do it, probably never will. Frankly, I think it has no place in sharpening a straight razor.

Also, as Bart mentioned, there is a difference between resetting a bevel and correcting it. I've more consistent success refreshing bevels on razors that need a touch up than I have running them over the finishing hones a bit. Considerably more success.

 

[Thebigspendur]

My feeling is whoever started this breadknifing thing should be executed. Its not a honing or sharpening method. It's the nuclear option when all else is inappropriate and shouldn't even be considered unless you are very skilled in honing. Unfortunately too many guys heard about it and think it's just another routine honing method.

 

[riooso]

+1


Later,
Richard

 

[azmark]

My feeling is whoever started this breadknifing thing should be executed.

I wouldn't go so drastic....maybe a good shellacking with a car antenna

 

[spanx]

My feeling is whoever started this breadknifing thing should be executed. Its not a honing or sharpening method. It's the nuclear option when all else is inappropriate and shouldn't even be considered unless you are very skilled in honing. Unfortunately too many guys heard about it and think it's just another routine honing method.

+1


Later,
Richard

I can hardly believe you guys have murder in your hearts for something as trivial as honing.breadknifing is not a big deal and it is easy to make a bevel afterwords.Honing is not as complicated as some make it out to be.You just need the appropriate equipment.

 

[Bart]

I can hardly believe you guys have murder in your hearts for something as trivial as honing.breadknifing is not a big deal and it is easy to make a bevel afterwords.Honing is not as complicated as some make it out to be.You just need the appropriate equipment.

Hear Hear.

The term was introduced by Gssixgun, in a thread on SRP (later turned into a Wiki article), about techniques for restoring the edge of an old beat-up razor.
The technique itself is very old and has been applied for ages by woodworkers and craftsman of all kind. The idea is to first create or restore the correct curve of an edge (could be straight, could be curved, depending on the purpose), and only then create or restore the actual bevel faces. The technique allows greater control over the edge's curvature and makes it also easier to keep that curve, while completing the bevel as a separate step.

An example:
Let's presume we need to hone out a severe frown. With the "breadknifing" technique, we would first restore the straightness of the edge, or even create a smiling curve if required. No matter what, the steel we are removing during that part of the process, needs to go anyway. After the edge has the correct curve, normal sharpening with the spine touching the whetstone, needs to restore a complete bevel. (we might opt to protect the spine with tape, but that's of no consequence for our story)

I case we would refuse to "breadknife", we need to adjust the shape while doing sharpening strokes. It's not as easy to control, and we will likely remove more steel than strictly necessary, before we can manage to reach the desired edge curve.

It is not easy to leave the part of the edge that doesn't need altering completely untouched, if we're not prepared to split the process in 2 separate tasks: first create the desired curvature, next put a bevel on that curve. I believe that is a fact, and therefor, when that kind of work needed, it is the logical thing to first grind the correct shape.

It is not logical however, to use a technique without proper understanding when and how to apply it. A razor with an acceptable edge curvature never needs "breadknifing", with one exception I can think of: it rarely happens on very old razors that the steel at the very edge is no good, aka, "steel rot" or "Swiss cheese syndrome". These razors can't be sharpened, because the edge just crumbles before it can take decent keenness. Sometimes better steel can be found further down the razor, sometimes not. With aid of a microscope, it is possible to remove the crumbled remains, restore a proper bevel and see if it holds this time. You might have to repeat the procedure a couple of times before decent steel is struck. I have managed to save very old Sheffield wedges that had serious problems with deeply caved corrosion, by applying this technique.

It is, in any sense, a substantial technique. Sharpening razors is always an intelligent effort. Just doing something randomly, in the hope to accidentally achieve a superior result, always has been a sure and quick path to ruin a razor.
That counts double when powerful techniques are into play. But it is not a technique's fault that not every one knows what he's doing.

Kind regards,
Bart.

 

[wdwrx]

I can hardly believe you guys have murder in your hearts for something as trivial as honing.breadknifing is not a big deal and it is easy to make a bevel afterwords.Honing is not as complicated as some make it out to be.You just need the appropriate equipment.

+1
Does breadknifing on a belt sander count? Cuz I've done that.

What really gets me are the people that talk about breadknifing a smile out. What's up with that?

Breadknifing is just a tool. The proverbial BFH, but a tool nevertheless.

 

[huntmol]

Great replies by everyone! Love this kind of discussion.

Seems that many feel that I should be refreshing the edges of my razors more often. Very interesting food for thought.

 

[Slash McCoy]

IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING, when correcting a frown, a chip, or severe smiling, it doesn't matter whether you breadknife or not. Either way, you are eventually removing the same steel. But if you DON'T know what you are doing, don't do it.

Breadknifing comes into its own when you don't have a wide enough honing surface to hone the entire blade length properly. When you are forced to take severe X strokes on a narrow hone, you aren't doing much to straighten the blade, and THEN you SHOULD breadknife first. Of course, if you don't have a wide hone, why aren't you using paper on glass or buying a good 3" hone?

I might add that the use of a narrow hone, particularly in unskilled hands, is the cause of hone-induced frown. Hey, folks, go with the wide rock, particularly if you are just starting. A hone as wide as the edge is long is much more forgiving and easier to get acceptable results for the newbie.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Great replies by everyone! Love this kind of discussion.

Seems that many feel that I should be refreshing the edges of my razors more often. Very interesting food for thought.

A lot depends on your stropping technique and equipment. But certainly a few strokes on your finest hone every few shaves is not going to hurt anything. Just don't get carried away. Your razor should be good for many years of daily shaves and it would be a shame to see it lose significant width in just a year or two. Light touch, fine stone, proper stropping and use. That's the key.

Watch out you don't let your strop belly on you. I think the best way to go is with a nice WIDE, LONG paddle strop, without abrasive, laid flat on a counter or table edge. It will take more strokes than a hanging strop but I think you get better results, certainly less convexing. If you use a hanging strop, keep it tight and don't press hard against it.

 

[Bart]

I might add that the use of a narrow hone, particularly in unskilled hands, is the cause of hone-induced frown. Hey, folks, go with the wide rock, particularly if you are just starting. A hone as wide as the edge is long is much more forgiving and easier to get acceptable results for the newbie.

I respectfully disagree. A lot of razors have a smile. Honing up and down on a wide hone won't work well, at least not till the smile is gone. That may not be very desirable though.
Furthermore, even though they're called "straight" razors, a lot of them aren't dead straight. If the razor has a smile, it will likely go unnoticed, because the measures to deal with the smile also deal with warp.
If you hone a slightly warped blade with up and down motions on a wide hone, the warp will translate to a frowning curve, or even a weirder shape.
The best way to hone a razor is by adopting an X-style honing stroke. You can do that on a wide hone, but there is no special advantage over doing it on a narrower hone. It all only the very narrow hones (let's say, below 1"3/4) that require some extra practice.

Watch out you don't let your strop belly on you. I think the best way to go is with a nice WIDE, LONG paddle strop, without abrasive, laid flat on a counter or table edge. It will take more strokes than a hanging strop but I think you get better results, certainly less convexing.

I have to respectfully disagree again.
A clean leather strop won't convex the edge of a razor. Too much slack may fold the edge to one side. Which side depends on the last stropping stroke. But that's not the same as a convex edge. A leather strop lacks the abrasion to change the shape of the bevel.

Kind regards,
Bart.