ID Help: Early Double Ring "Patent applied for" Set

[thekinge]

I recently won an auction for an early "Patent applied for" double ring set and paid way more than I usually would have. Now that the set is on its way to Singapore, I'm posting pictures of the set to check with B&B'ersif there are other sets like these that have been documented before:

I've seen other early DR sets have the wording "Sharp" & "Dull" but the blade containers in this set have the unusual wording "Un-used" & "Used":



Another picture with a close-up of the blade containers:


There's also a split in the handle, similar to the set that shavefreak posted here. You can also see the "Patent applied for" just above the knob.


I do not know if this set is serial numbered or not (still don't have it in hand), but are there other DR sets with similar blade containers that have been found and posted in B&B?

 

[shavefreak]

I would say the used unused is not common at all but there was also no rhyme or reason with the blade boxes. I logically thought they started out with just "Gillette" with the design and then moved to sharp dull but they mixed them all up with dates. It is hard to tell from the pictures but I suspect you might have a non ser. numbered razor and the top of the handle knurling might be thin I put this razor at late 1903 early 1904. The case is also telling if it opens directly in the middle or closer to the top, meaning a less deep top than the bottom, or exactly the same. Keep us posted.

 

[elmerwood]

Ahhh The King strikes again . Interested as well to see what you've got here.

 

[dcobranchi]

The blade boxes are also telling if they open directly in the middle or closer to the top, meaning a less deep top than the bottom, or exactly the same. Keep us posted.

The 2nd pic looks like there's no top at all on the blade cases. Thumb notched?

 

[Dalejr]

The 2nd pic looks like there's no top at all on the blade cases.

You would be correct.

 

[MacDaddy]

I was thinking that might have been you, Dhilip.

I'm betting that it's probably an unserialed razor, too. It's a crying shame about all the bent corner teeth and all the leather missing from the case, though. Still, it's a nice piece of history as a very early example, and very cool that it's got the paperwork still.

The 2nd pic looks like there's no top at all on the blade cases. Thumb notched?

Yeah, all of Gillette's earliest sets used these sorts of "sleeves" without separate tops -- well, except for the mythical pasteboard box and litho tin sets. I can't say as I've ever seen "USED/UN-USED" ones like this -- neither in photos of found examples nor in the advertising record -- but it's certainly not outside the realm of possible that these might have been original.

Personally, my money is on these cases and blade sleeves having actually been provided by the Gillette Sales Company rather than the manufacturing company. I've actually seen ads in trade publications for companies offering to make cases for razors and other cutlery items for manufacturers, and it would seem very logical to buy these from a third-party maker who already had the capacity to make them to their specifications, particularly in these early years when they were still working hard to get just the manufacturing of the razors and blades optimized. If that's true then it wouldn't be crazy to imagine that there'd be some amount of variation in the accessories -- we know that the ribbons started more plain like this one and became more ornate later, and we know the same is true of the early "DULL/SHARP" sleeves to the later ones, too.

So maybe these are an early example before they decided that "UN-USED" wasn't as good a label as "SHARP," or maybe these are replacements from some other maker's set altogether. They certainly don't look out of place there in that set, though.

 

[ERVARGASNY]

Nice find, Take it to a Jeweler with some heat and little bends at a time, He should be able to fix it, How much did that Ugly Duckling Run you? PM if you dont want to post price paid )

Congrat's

 

[Mark1966]

And nobody has pointed out what attracted me to this set but not enough to beat 'The King'...

Look at the 'Pat App For' in the third photo - it is clearly upside down. There is another like that mentioned that by somebody else (sorry I've forgotten who) but they are certainly uncommon - and not something you could get by just inverting the barrel.

Another great pickup mate - looking forward to better pics and the details entered into the database on the Wiki.

I suppose you will not be wanting that DR from me then ...

EDIT: +1 on bendng the teeth back - I've done it on SRs and it can be done on a DR, jsut very carefully!

 

[shavefreak]

The 2nd pic looks like there's no top at all on the blade cases. Thumb notched?

I had just woken up when I wrote that I meant the razor case.

Look at the center line where the top part of the case meets the bottom, where it latches. The early razors and cases are right in the middle, meaning when the case is opened 50% is the lid and %50 where the razor and blades sit. The newer cases are bottom heavy, where the top part is like 30% the bottom %70.

Save me the search trouble, can I get the link or final price?

 

[Dalejr]

I had just woken up when I wrote that I meant the razor case.

Look at the center line where the top part of the case meets the bottom, where it latches. The early razors and cases are right in the middle, meaning when the case is opened 50% is the lid and %50 where the razor and blades sit. The newer cases are bottom heavy, where the top part is like 30% the bottom %70.

Save me the search trouble, can I get the link or final price?

I think this is the one.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/VERY-EARLY-...951?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item257c93d497

 

[elmerwood]

I think this is the one.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/VERY-EARLY-...951?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item257c93d497

We really didn't need to dig this up.....

But at least it went to a friend and we get to examine it and pull all the info we can from it.

 

[ERVARGASNY]

And nobody has pointed out what attracted me to this set but not enough to beat 'The King'...

Look at the 'Pat App For' in the third photo - it is clearly upside down. There is another like that mentioned that by somebody else (sorry I've forgotten who) but they are certainly uncommon - and not something you could get by just inverting the barrel.

Another great pickup mate - looking forward to better pics and the details entered into the database on the Wiki.

I suppose you will not be wanting that DR from me then ...

EDIT: +1 on bendng the teeth back - I've done it on SRs and it can be done on a DR, just very carefully!

I though that was strange also, Upside Down PAT Mistakes like that in printing is what makes coins so Valuable and Rare :O)

 

[Intrigued]

And nobody has pointed out what attracted me to this set but not enough to beat 'The King'...

Look at the 'Pat App For' in the third photo - it is clearly upside down. There is another like that mentioned that by somebody else (sorry I've forgotten who) but they are certainly uncommon - and not something you could get by just inverting the barrel.

Another great pickup mate - looking forward to better pics and the details entered into the database on the Wiki.

I suppose you will not be wanting that DR from me then ...

EDIT: +1 on bendng the teeth back - I've done it on SRs and it can be done on a DR, jsut very carefully!

My Double Ring has an inverted "PAT APL'D FOR", the same as this one.

It might be interesting to have someone who is WIKI literate add some sort of notation to the Double Ring registry about these anomalies. It might help us figure out just how common or uncommon the inversion is....

 

[MacDaddy]

I had just woken up when I wrote that I meant the razor case.

Look at the center line where the top part of the case meets the bottom, where it latches. The early razors and cases are right in the middle, meaning when the case is opened 50% is the lid and %50 where the razor and blades sit. The newer cases are bottom heavy, where the top part is like 30% the bottom %70.

Ah, yes. This is definitely the half-and-half kind of case. I've got one myself and I know just what you're talking about.

 

[shavefreak]

First off Mr. The Kinge thank you for posting about your new razor, I should have thanked your before. I love love love seeing DR posts and this is a nice set with the book, upside down pat, rare blade cases and seam in the handle. If it had all the blades you would be over 600, the teeth are not so bad. I think this is not a bargain but better than a fair price and if there proves to be no serial number it will appreciate. If there is a serial number I suspect they were short one month and pulled this out of the old slightly irregular pile and hastily engraved it.

I am anxious to see the handle knurling up near the cap as I said earlier. In this post I compared the really early DR's with the older DR's and although I still need more proof I think this post gets us closer to the 1903 manufactured razors over the 1904's. I am still putting together some tin research with these early double rings and hope to get something concrete one day.

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showth...pe-More-double-ring-fun?highlight=double+ring

 

[thekinge]

Wow, thank you all for your responses!

I would say the used unused is not common at all but there was also no rhyme or reason with the blade boxes. I logically thought they started out with just "Gillette" with the design and then moved to sharp dull but they mixed them all up with dates. It is hard to tell from the pictures but I suspect you might have a non ser. numbered razor and the top of the handle knurling might be thin I put this razor at late 1903 early 1904. The case is also telling if it opens directly in the middle or closer to the top, meaning a less deep top than the bottom, or exactly the same. Keep us posted.

I had just woken up when I wrote that I meant the razor case.

Look at the center line where the top part of the case meets the bottom, where it latches. The early razors and cases are right in the middle, meaning when the case is opened 50% is the lid and %50 where the razor and blades sit. The newer cases are bottom heavy, where the top part is like 30% the bottom %70.

Save me the search trouble, can I get the link or final price?

Ah, yes. This is definitely the half-and-half kind of case. I've got one myself and I know just what you're talking about.

Yes this is certainly the half-and-half case:

I was thinking that might have been you, Dhilip.

I'm betting that it's probably an unserialed razor, too. It's a crying shame about all the bent corner teeth and all the leather missing from the case, though. Still, it's a nice piece of history as a very early example, and very cool that it's got the paperwork still.

Yeah, all of Gillette's earliest sets used these sorts of "sleeves" without separate tops -- well, except for the mythical pasteboard box and litho tin sets. I can't say as I've ever seen "USED/UN-USED" ones like this -- neither in photos of found examples nor in the advertising record -- but it's certainly not outside the realm of possible that these might have been original.

Personally, my money is on these cases and blade sleeves having actually been provided by the Gillette Sales Company rather than the manufacturing company. I've actually seen ads in trade publications for companies offering to make cases for razors and other cutlery items for manufacturers, and it would seem very logical to buy these from a third-party maker who already had the capacity to make them to their specifications, particularly in these early years when they were still working hard to get just the manufacturing of the razors and blades optimized. If that's true then it wouldn't be crazy to imagine that there'd be some amount of variation in the accessories -- we know that the ribbons started more plain like this one and became more ornate later, and we know the same is true of the early "DULL/SHARP" sleeves to the later ones, too.

So maybe these are an early example before they decided that "UN-USED" wasn't as good a label as "SHARP," or maybe these are replacements from some other maker's set altogether. They certainly don't look out of place there in that set, though.

Thanks as always Porter! The ribbon on this set is the earlier plain vanilla type and clearly says "Gillette Sales Co". Also, I'm inclined to think that these blade sleeves may have been original to the set, but I'll get to know more once I have the set in hand!

And nobody has pointed out what attracted me to this set but not enough to beat 'The King'...

Look at the 'Pat App For' in the third photo - it is clearly upside down. There is another like that mentioned that by somebody else (sorry I've forgotten who) but they are certainly uncommon - and not something you could get by just inverting the barrel.

Another great pickup mate - looking forward to better pics and the details entered into the database on the Wiki.

I suppose you will not be wanting that DR from me then ...

EDIT: +1 on bendng the teeth back - I've done it on SRs and it can be done on a DR, jsut very carefully!

Mate, thanks for pointing out the inverted "Pat applied for" inscription! I for sure know I way overpaid for this one and I'm not the kind to overpay! However, there were a few things about my set that piqued my interest and hence my irrational final bid. But going by responses to this thread, it may indeed be a rare DR set. Fingers crossed till I take delivery. Btw, our DR deal is still on and I'll reach out to you through PM to take it forward.

 

[thekinge]

Ahhh The King strikes again . Interested as well to see what you've got here.

Thanks elmerwood!

Nice find, Take it to a Jeweler with some heat and little bends at a time, He should be able to fix it, How much did that Ugly Duckling Run you? PM if you dont want to post price paid )

Congrat's

Vargas, thanks and you already would know the price by now!!

We really didn't need to dig this up.....

But at least it went to a friend and we get to examine it and pull all the info we can from it.

elmerwood, it's alright by me. Dale's a great guy as you are and besides, I created this thread fully aware that at least one or more of keen B&B'ers may dig up the ebay link and post it here.

My Double Ring has an inverted "PAT APL'D FOR", the same as this one.

It might be interesting to have someone who is WIKI literate add some sort of notation to the Double Ring registry about these anomalies. It might help us figure out just how common or uncommon the inversion is....

So that makes it two DRs with the inverted "PAT APl'D FOR". I'm all for having these kinds of anomalies noted in a "Remarks" column so that it's viewable in one place. I also would suggest including the member name in the Wiki so that we know who owns which. Where's Alex when we need him?!

First off Mr. The Kinge thank you for posting about your new razor, I should have thanked your before. I love love love seeing DR posts and this is a nice set with the book, upside down pat, rare blade cases and seam in the handle. If it had all the blades you would be over 600, the teeth are not so bad. I think this is not a bargain but better than a fair price and if there proves to be no serial number it will appreciate. If there is a serial number I suspect they were short one month and pulled this out of the old slightly irregular pile and hastily engraved it.

I am anxious to see the handle knurling up near the cap as I said earlier. In this post I compared the really early DR's with the older DR's and although I still need more proof I think this post gets us closer to the 1903 manufactured razors over the 1904's. I am still putting together some tin research with these early double rings and hope to get something concrete one day.

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showth...pe-More-double-ring-fun?highlight=double+ring

shavefreak, the pleasure's in sharing and I'm happy to share details of my finds to the brethern of B&B. And thanks to you for letting us in on the first litho tin owned by a B&B'er and the engraved single ring sets! This certainly is not a bargain but I bid on this set because there were a few things about this set that piqued my interest so no regrets on what I paid. I will certainly post more detailed pictures as soon as I have the set in hand.

 

[thekinge]

i think this is a not serial numbered double ring but condition wasnt as good as i could justify the reached selling price, imo. nothing extraordinary about this that.

As negative as your comment may seem, I still respect the fact that you've taken the time to view this thread and post your thoughts and thanks for that. As I myself noted in the original post, I do know that I way overpaid for this one, but I did so because the set seemed to be unique.

that fact isnt rare at all. i've seen many single rings and nearly up to 50% of the goodwills with twisted handles

Gillette was known to have done all sorts of variants even among seemingly routine sets but I would be interested to see the links or usable references where you've seen single rings with such inverted inscriptions. I'm not too sure what you mean by goodwills with twisted handles as goodwills typically came with the common ball end handles and at least the goodwill that I have does not have any kind of inscription in the handle. Again, links and references would be very helpful in the interest of knowledge that could get added to B&B.

 

[alex2363]

My Double Ring has an inverted "PAT APL'D FOR", the same as this one.

It might be interesting to have someone who is WIKI literate add some sort of notation to the Double Ring registry about these anomalies. It might help us figure out just how common or uncommon the inversion is....

View attachment 327247 View attachment 327248

That is a great idea, i can do that if all the members that have the inverted Pat's APL'D FOR's can let me know i will input it in the WIKI.

 

[alex2363]

Thanks elmerwood!



Vargas, thanks and you already would know the price by now!!



elmerwood, it's alright by me. Dale's a great guy as you are and besides, I created this thread fully aware that at least one or more of keen B&B'ers may dig up the ebay link and post it here.



So that makes it two DRs with the inverted "PAT APl'D FOR". I'm all for having these kinds of anomalies noted in a "Remarks" column so that it's viewable in one place. I also would suggest including the member name in the Wiki so that we know who owns which. Where's Alex when we need him?!




shavefreak, the pleasure's in sharing and I'm happy to share details of my finds to the brethern of B&B. And thanks to you for letting us in on the first litho tin owned by a B&B'er and the engraved single ring sets! This certainly is not a bargain but I bid on this set because there were a few things about this set that piqued my interest so no regrets on what I paid. I will certainly post more detailed pictures as soon as I have the set in hand.

I am here for you buddy, i been busy with some personal business ( apartment rental) and some physical rehab on my ankle......But i will take Connie's/Intrigued suggestion and input all the inverted DR's and include the inverted info with the numbers, i may need all the owners of the inverts to let me know, PM me or post them.