I just blew $80 on an 8k whetstone. Do I really need a 12k whetstone for SR honing?

[rickboone1]

I shave off a 1k. Took it to pasted skrops. Weren't half bad. Pretty irrelevant comment.
Did anyone help hone OP at all or did he wander off in confusion and disgust?
Where did be pay $80 for an 8k? I don't know how much they cost. I make all my own hones.

 

[SliceOfLife]

His is the 8k kitayama, which was called the 8k/12k for awhile because it was sold as both. I don't remember exactly, but the rumor was a few years back that it was supposedly 8k particles that broke down (a-la jnats) into 12k particles. I want to say that turned out to not be true and it was just an 8k with an unusual binder that tended to give superior results to most 8ks... but this was all knife forum discussion, so who knows how it translates to razors.



http://www.chefknivestogo.com/kitayama8000.html

This stone.

Some knife guys really liked it, but as I recall, most considered it just an alright 8k, and tended to go back to the 8k they preferred before it (these were guys who bought dozens of stones in the same grit range and picked their favorites, so pretty picky). Honestly, the debate surrounding its grit probably sold more stones than it ever would have if it were just always considered a really decent 8k.

 

[daflorc]

Of course you can shave off an 8k. That was the standard for many of us at one time. I have shaved right off my 6k King and off barber hones. i do prefer a fine film edge though and most anyone else would too.
A lot can be done to max out te 8k edge. There is oil and rhere is lather. There is the use of ultra light pressure and high lap counts. Some honers finish with a few stropping strokes or sideways across the stone strokes. Learn to getvthe most out of your 8k before trying a finisher and ultimately your edges will be better for it. If you cant shave off your 8k thwn you are not ready for a finisher. Your finisher would likely take rhe place of better rechnique and you would thwn not be fetting the most from your finisher.
Film is a fine option for finishing. its what I use.The stone age is over. Film rules now.

+1, right on

 

[daflorc]

I shave off a 1k. Took it to pasted skrops. Weren't half bad. Pretty irrelevant comment.
Did anyone help hone OP at all or did he wander off in confusion and disgust?
Where did be pay $80 for an 8k? I don't know how much they cost. I make all my own hones.

Whoa whoa whoa... you make your own hones? If you're not talking about film mounted on something, you need to post pictures

 

[daflorc]

I don't think the discussion stalled.

I think Ian tore a gaping hole in the side of a hot air ballon and it fell out of the sky and crashed to the ground.

Actually, one of our moderators asked us to stop arguing - which was unfortunate, because just prior to that, Ian informed us that bolt cutters are difficult to use because people don't sharpen them adequately. Shot that hot air balloon right outta the sky, he did!

But, I respect the moderators, and am using breathing techniques to refrain from further discussion on the subject. I suggest we all abide by the mod's respectful request and leave that previous conversation alone

 

[SliceOfLife]

Not frequently enough, not inadequately. They are relatively rough edged, but lose their edge with very few uses, contrary to what you think. They actually are served quite well to deburr and oil after every use.

 

[Legion]

I shave off a 1k. Took it to pasted skrops. Weren't half bad. Pretty irrelevant comment.
Did anyone help hone OP at all or did he wander off in confusion and disgust?
Where did be pay $80 for an 8k? I don't know how much they cost. I make all my own hones.

I hope not. If you wade through all of this discussion there is some quite interesting information. And almost a consensus of opinion.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Op has a decent enough 8k JIS hone, which based on knife users reports of it giving a 10k or better mirror polish, likely has slightly tighter specs than many 8k Jis hones for particle sizes. It should serve him just fine until he feels the need to get something better. Or hell, if he just wants to satisfy his own curiosity, as a few others have suggested, he could spend (what, $10 or so?) on some 1 micron film. Alternately if he wanted to try a natural finish, there's any number of members who offer free honing if asked nicely on everything from coti to jnats. Hell he could probably even find an arkansas honer or two in there. He's in a position where he doesn't need to spend any large amount of money until he knows it will get him what he wants.

 

[Krodor]

Not frequently enough, not inadequately. They are relatively rough edged, but lose their edge with very few uses, contrary to what you think. They actually are served quite well to deburr and oil after every use.View attachment 344103

The mods?

 

[daflorc]

Not frequently enough, not inadequately. They are relatively rough edged, but lose their edge with very few uses, contrary to what you think. They actually are served quite well to deburr and oil after every use.

Not frequently enough, not inadequately. They are relatively rough edged, but lose their edge with very few uses, contrary to what you think. They actually are served quite well to deburr and oil after every use.

So...I used to be a copywriter for Ace Hardware Corporation. My job was to write product training manuals that the company would use to train its international sales managers abroad (who then trained regional sales managers, who then trained others, and down the line until you get to the salesman. Ace has like 5,000 stores abroad). One of the products I had to know inside and out was bolt cutters...

Anyways, long story short, I'm about to give you a long lesson about bolt cutters, but I don't want to make you look any more foolish in front of all of your friends. So, I do suggest that we all take the mods advice and end this conversation. Suffice it to say, any "sharpening" of the cutting blades of bolt cutters is counterintuitive. But yes, it is a good idea to oil all your tools periodically... (heres a better place for that image of yoursView attachment 344103

 

[Haggises]

using breathing techniques to refrain from further discussion on the subject. I suggest we all abide by the mod's respectful request and leave that previous conversation alone

Ahem. Breathe more?

 

[Brooksie967]

OP: have you any thoughts?

 

[Haggises]

OP: have you any thoughts?

+a lot

 

[SliceOfLife]

Mods, can I have just one more response pretty pretty please. This is getting too humorous to resist.


Consistency is under appreciated in this day and age, but not by me. So remember folks, if you consider sharpening your tools to be counterintuitive, then 8k shaving edges are for you.

 

[daflorc]

Ian, at the point that bolt cutters get to what you just depicted, you're supposed to throw them away, or in some models, actually replace the cutting edges. Good bolt cutters have an induction hardened cutting edge that causes a martensitic transformation in the surface of the steel. This process makes the outer shell of the steel far harder than the base metal just under the surface, which is why new bold cutters can crush bolts and rebar and other thick hardened steel.

While the nature of this process makes steel harder than steel hardened by other methods, it also makes the cutting edges more brittle. After much wear and tear, bolt cutters may eventually degrade to the point of no return - as is shown in the picture you posted. At this point, if you still want to make clean-ish cuts, you need to replace the bolt cutters, because no amount of sharpening will bring back the damaged martensitically transformed surface steel - (the steel that allows bolts and things to be cut without marring the cutting edges of the bolt cutter). Once you grind off that extra-hard surface layer, that is already damaged beyond repair, you expose hardened steel that is in many cases no harder than the material it is cutting. This basically means that you CAN sharpen the cutting edges, but they will just get damaged again after a couple uses.

Btw, the reason that you find that bolt cutters are sometimes very hard to use is not that the cutting edges are not "sharp" enough. You couldn't cut your finger on those cutting edges if you tried. The problem is that you are using too small of bolt cutters for the job in question. Larger bolt cutters with longer handles exert more leverage and have a larger jaw opening which allows you to exert more force onto an item to be cut. And I am assuming that we're talking about the same kind of bolt cutters - center cut cutters - the strongest of the bolt cutters.

What I just can't understand, Ian, is why you would continue to try to prove me wrong, even after I informed you that in my previous job I basically taught every bolt-cutter salesman on the planet everything they needed to know about bolt cutters (and many other tools, working as the lead copywriter for sales and marketing materials for Ace Hardware Corporation International Holdings). By telling you that, I gave you an opportunity to save face, but you turned it down, and look what happened. Have you learned your lesson yet? Can we move forward, hopefully back to straight razors, or do you want to dig your hole all the way to China?

Btw, I made the important parts colorful and bold, because at this point I'm not sure you're actually reading the things I'm writing...

 

[SliceOfLife]

Hey now, throwing big words like Martensitic transformation around, I almost think you don't so much mean to quench my thirst for knowledge, as you simply lost your temper.


With that, I've taken this to PM. Sorry I didn't sooner, but I hoped to give a few people a bit of a laugh.

edit: Oh woops, just noticed, you're talking about case hardening, not induction hardening. Induction hardening produces a gradually decreasing level of hardness and is not necessarily used to create a thin shell of hardness (typically it isn't because there are much cheaper methods using lower carbon steel, it is used in applications where you want a controlled depth of hardness), case (which can be done via induction, but isn't necessarily) produces a plate-like exterior surface and thus can not be sharpened. Semantics, but it would get confusing in our PM's if we didn't sort that out.

 

[cleanshaved]

OP. I think you should stay with the 8k for now.
Learning to master what you already have before adding another stone, will help your honing skills move up the curve.
A 12k or a natural stone to finish would be great but you don't need it today.

 

[California Cajun]

I bought a Kitayama 8K water stone. Should I still buy a 12k stone?

I would. It is a nice finisher that feels real good on your face.

 

[Legion]

I would. It is a nice finisher that feels real good on your face.

IMO, if this one post had been first we could have save six pages of typing. But please, continue...

What were we talking about? Bolt cutters?

 

[SliceOfLife]

Bolt cutters are darned interesting. Just think, if your straight razor could convert 60 pounds force into 4000 how quickly one could shave! You wouldn't even need to sharpen it.

edit: Hold on... I think I just discovered how electric razors work!

But come on, give me some credit, those puns were freaking golden.