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I just blew $80 on an 8k whetstone. Do I really need a 12k whetstone for SR honing?

Egyptians got REALLY crummy shaves?
I wonder if there is any proof of them shaving with these or if it was made for ceremony or something else. Apparently they have found SOLID GOLD razors too... Can't see that being very good at maintaining an edge.
 

SliceOfLife

Contributor
He's pointing out that your source is bad. Using the terms "strength" and "Tough" rather than "Sheer Strength" and other terms that have meaning and can be scientifically calculated is a pretty big indication. But again the main point was that the fact that cells can be cut apart in a very different way than metals is what is important here. Two words should settle this, "Paper cuts".

2. I'm not splitting hairs at all, you are fundamentally misunderstanding what honing does and using that to draw a highly erroneous conclusion... that refining an edge beyond 8k adds the potential for edge degradation in use. This is not accurate, and if you don't understand why, then you really aren't in a position to be arguing whether 8k edges or more refined edges are superior.

3. Right.

..Now zoom in to your triangles tip, and notice that while it LOOKS like it comes to an apex to the eye, under a microscope it has width still...now hone with some higher grit stones and watch that width shrink ;)
Yeah, except it doesn't. We've been over this. You're trying to extend what happens at very low grits to higher grits, and it proves your lack of experience.


Your logic sounds smart, but withers in the face of experience. Hail experience! It gives us knowledge instead of educated speculation :) Here's a riddle for you - what holds its edge better - a razor blade, or bolt cutters? My guess is that the thinner edge has less staying power...
Now check the grind angle of each. Now check the steel composition. Now consider their function. One is used with a massive amount of force applied across a large section of the edge against a material with extremely high sheer strength, the other is used with almost no force applied inconsistently along the edge against a material with virtually no sheer strength. Your "experience" (quotes highly emphasized) is showing. Also, that's not a riddle. Furthermore, in their intended uses, Razors hold their edge far, far better than bolt cutters do. Most people just don't sharpen their bolt cutters nearly as much as they should, which is why bolt cutters are often so damn hard to use. But, I'll give you a pass on that, assuming that you simply haven't been very experienced with bolt cutters.

You're half right. It will keep that uber-keenness for all of half a shave to a full shave, at which point the edge will then deteriorate to a point of less keenness - but still be perfectly shave ready.
Either you're completely failing to understand what actually happens in a shave or your being very clever here. This happens with every shaving edge, that is why we strop. However, your phrasing of it isn't entirely accurate, You aren't moving permanently back to a lower level of refinement, rather you are increasing the std dev of the x axis of the edge, which will then be pulled back via stropping. A 10k edge that is shaved with and then stropped doesn't become a 9k edge. It becomes a 10k edge that may have a few microscopic particles of the original edge missing. This is exactly the same for an 8k edge. It doesn't become a 7k edge. It becomes an 8k edge that may have a few microscopic particles of the original edge missing.


edit: Changed the bolds to Italics, to make it a bit easier to read.
 
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The thin edge thing. Meh...I guess we all get big wedges now and hone on 8k? If it is not good enough add oil. It will increase the grit size of the stone.
Naturals are better. Synths are harsh. Well if you follow up a nat with paste you're no longer natural. But I'm call fluff on that crap too. I've finished with both. No ones known the difference. In most cases I've had more comments about smoothness when finished on synth. Could be that I just use them more and so more are honed on those thus more comments.
This urine war is getting old and really degrading what this place used to be about. Yawn.
Tell you what. Send me a blade. Don't mark who it's from nor how it was honed. I will compare them all in a blind shave test and post my findings.
Nah, still wouldn't stop the whining of it all.
 
Fun stuff, good reading for sure.

I really think that we're beating a dead horse here, at the end of the day, some people, depending on their skin and beard, are quite happy with an 8k edge. I personally desire more refinement than that as I notice I have better shaves. That is all.
 
He's pointing out that your source is bad. Using the terms "strength" and "Tough" rather than "Sheer Strength" and other terms that have meaning and can be scientifically calculated is a pretty big indication. But again the main point was that the fact that cells can be cut apart in a very different way than metals is what is important here. Two words should settle this, "Paper cuts".
2. I'm not splitting hairs at all, you are fundamentally misunderstanding what honing does and using that to draw a highly erroneous conclusion... that refining an edge beyond 8k adds the potential for edge degradation in use. This is not accurate, and if you don't understand why, then you really aren't in a position to be arguing whether 8k edges or more refined edges are superior.
3. Right.
Yeah, except it doesn't. We've been over this. You're trying to extend what happens at very low grits to higher grits, and it proves your lack of experience.
Now check the grind angle of each. Now check the steel composition. Now consider their function. One is used with a massive amount of force applied across a large section of the edge against a material with extremely high sheer strength, the other is used with almost no force applied inconsistently along the edge against a material with virtually no sheer strength. Your "experience" (quotes highly emphasized) is showing. Also, that's not a riddle. Furthermore, in their intended uses, Razors hold their edge far, far better than bolt cutters do. Most people just don't sharpen their bolt cutters nearly as much as they should, which is why bolt cutters are often so damn hard to use. But, I'll give you a pass on that, assuming that you simply haven't been very experienced with bolt cutters.
Either you're completely failing to understand what actually happens in a shave or your being very clever here. This happens with every shaving edge, that is why we strop. However, your phrasing of it isn't entirely accurate, You aren't moving permanently back to a lower level of refinement, rather you are increasing the std dev of the x axis of the edge, which will then be pulled back via stropping. A 10k edge that is shaved with and then stropped doesn't become a 9k edge. It becomes a 10k edge that may have a few microscopic particles of the original edge missing. This is exactly the same for an 8k edge. It doesn't become a 7k edge. It becomes an 8k edge that may have a few microscopic particles of the original edge missing.
Do you have anything other than a scientific vocabulary, 6,000 posts and 3 pictures of a badger hair brush in your gallery to give credence to anything that you are saying? I'm getting tired of trying to explain to you why you don't know what you're talking about. Do you have any actual experience with honing or shaving with straight razors?

Btw, "most people just don't sharpen their bolt cutters nearly as much as they should, which is why bolt cutters are often so damn hard to use?" Really? And straight razors cut the same way as paper cuts skin, aka paper cuts? Really?

I think I'm going to have to give up here. There is no point trying to teach someone who doesn't want to learn. I hope one day you buy some hones and a straight razor and give it a shot - SR shaving is a fun and enjoyable activity.
 

SliceOfLife

Contributor
Structures made of cells cut the same way. Along cell divides. Which are a structural weakness so profound that paper with almost no force can perform the task. This is why comparing cutting hair to cutting even an extremely soft metal like copper is silly.

And yeah, I've sharpened a razor or two. As for hones? I've owned more hones of a single color of a single vein of a single rock from a single region than you've owned straight razors. Sometimes it's better to just consider that someone might have more experience than you when you've been doing something for a few months.
 
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And there was this one time....at band camp. My hones are better than yours better than yours better than yours.
What has two thumbs and can't hone his way out a wet paper sack? ^^^^^^ these guys ^^^^^^
< him too. Shhhh... Well if you built a slurry on the sack. Gah. Shut up and shave. Why yes I do converse with myself often. I don't know big words.
 

SiBurning

Contributor
Seems to me we're getting lost in definitions. It's a shame because this is interesting.

I could read width as edge radius and most of the misunderstanding goes away. There's just one assumption needed. I'll pose it as a question because I've had similar discussions about why people toss feather blades after two shaves, and don't really know the answer. Does a jagged edge with its larger edge radius still have areas that are sharper, so does it cut better, even while feeling terrible to some people?

I always like to see correlation between theory and the practical side, whether it's honing or anything else, but it's always difficult to have technical discussions without a $144,000 vocabulary and agreement on the underlying models. We can't even get agreement about the meaning of cushion vs glide. But you can't create proper models without the discussions. Chicken and egg.
 
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Si I cannot answer your questions with any reasoning. Nor will I pretend to. I didn't like feather blades when I used a de. I didn't try them long. They were too harsh feeling and I got lots of irrigation.

Cushion/ glide. We as wet shavers create and overuse the jargon.

Sure a jagged edge can have sharper points. I don't think I'm catching what your intended question is...

We can attempt to reason and quantify all day. We like what we like an prefer what we prefer and will rationalize ourselves silly to attempt to prove or disprove our debate. Very much like politics and religion. What's right for you is intently right but may appear absurd to others.
 

SiBurning

Contributor
Si I cannot answer your questions with any reasoning....

Sure a jagged edge can have sharper points. I don't think I'm catching what your intended question is...
Not really asking a question. It seems to me that this great discussion stalled because people weren't talking the same language. I'm trying to point out that it's often difficult to have these discussions because we don't have a shared vocabulary and underlying models. Of course it's difficult, but most things worth doing are.
 
Of course you can shave off an 8k. That was the standard for many of us at one time. I have shaved right off my 6k King and off barber hones. i do prefer a fine film edge though and most anyone else would too.

A lot can be done to max out te 8k edge. There is oil and rhere is lather. There is the use of ultra light pressure and high lap counts. Some honers finish with a few stropping strokes or sideways across the stone strokes. Learn to getvthe most out of your 8k before trying a finisher and ultimately your edges will be better for it. If you cant shave off your 8k thwn you are not ready for a finisher. Your finisher would likely take rhe place of better rechnique and you would thwn not be fetting the most from your finisher.

Film is a fine option for finishing. its what I use.The stone age is over. Film rules now.
 
I don't think the discussion stalled.

I think Ian tore a gaping hole in the side of a hot air ballon and it fell out of the sky and crashed to the ground.
 

SliceOfLife

Contributor
Of course you can shave off an 8k. That was the standard for many of us at one time. I have shaved right off my 6k King and off barber hones. i do prefer a fine film edge though and most anyone else would too.

A lot can be done to max out te 8k edge. There is oil and rhere is lather. There is the use of ultra light pressure and high lap counts. Some honers finish with a few stropping strokes or sideways across the stone strokes. Learn to getvthe most out of your 8k before trying a finisher and ultimately your edges will be better for it. If you cant shave off your 8k thwn you are not ready for a finisher. Your finisher would likely take rhe place of better rechnique and you would thwn not be fetting the most from your finisher.

Film is a fine option for finishing. its what I use.The stone age is over. Film rules now.
Well you could argue that 6k kings are on paper significantly higher avg grit than 8k nortons (I believe they are JIS and should be around 1.8 or 2micron avg vs 3micron avg, someone correct me if I'm wrong here). But in my experience with them, their particle size was extremely inconsistent, so they may not be. And yes, I don't think any one would argue that you can shave off an 8k stone, or even less. The sticking point seems to be whether people consider 8k mesh/micron sufficient to shave daily for life off of and not be missing out on a noticeably better shave that could be offered by a more refined edge.
That said, I disagree that sharper blades can mask shaving technique problems. In fact, I'd argue the exact opposite. I find I must be much more careful about my technique with my sharper finishes. I've shaved very haphazardly with lower grit finishes, and coticule (well known as an easy edge to shave with) finishes simply because I can afford to do so. If I shaved with half the vigor with my jnat finishes that I've used with coticule finishes, I'd have cut off a large portion of my face by now.

As I remember it, the people who started the 8k should feel just fine or you're a bad honer standard were all guys who made money selling honings to people... and they all went higher than 8k on the honings they sold, so something doesn't add up there. Now why someone who wants you to feel they are selling you a quality of honing you can't get for yourself would want you to think that you should be perfectly happy self-honing to an edge that they also don't consider good enough to send you is entirely up to your own reasoning.

That said, there are probably going to be people who can't tell an 8k edge from a better one. I don't think these people are lying. I would have had a hell of a time telling 8k from 30k edges apart during an arm hair test when I was newer to honing, and it's not ALL that much different. That said, I myself, and almost every other shaver I know, with everything from a year to fifty years spent using a straight razor can tell them apart easily. For me I'll notice an 8k edge the very first WTG swipe and end the shave or switch razors. It's a world of difference. There are a lot of variables there (beard growth, technique, lather, prep, and more). But based on what I experience shaving and the fact that I'm in a pretty massive majority of experienced shavers (who can tell an 8k edge from whatever their preferred edges are), I think it would be hypocritical to recommend to others to be happy with an 8k edge, or suggest to them that they are somehow not honing properly if they aren't content with an edge that I myself wouldn't be content with. Yes, if your 8k edge won't cut your beard at all, then you have probably messed up somehow. If however you just aren't content with an edge that many others also wouldn't be content with, then maybe you just prefer a sharper razor than the guys who are content with 8k finishes.

I can't count how many $1 barbers hones I've owned that I'd estimate fell in the 6-9k range. Right beside this, Eschers were selling for $9+. And there are a LOT of Eschers floating around out there, so this wasn't a rich man's wasted money, they were a popular item among barber's and anyone capable of affording them. As were coticules. And they were both popular for a reason, because they offered a vastly superior edge to the synths available at the time, which few people would argue weren't available in grits AT LEAST on par with a Norton 8k.
 
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