Humbling failure

[totorlekiller]

I am traveling this week and took with me a set of Japanese razors I just received thinking I'll have time to hone at night.
I took a minimalist honing kit with me: a small dmt 600, a ruby (3000), a jade (10000), and an agate (15000).
Whenever I got a bevel on the Dmt it broke when I moved up. I tried less strokes, more strokes, skipping the 3000. Nothing worked.
typically this set works well with one key addition: a king 1k.
So my conclusion is that a proper bevel is 1k and if you skip that a proper edge won't be possible. Now I wish I understood why.

 

[aephilli]

...Whenever I got a bevel on the Dmt it broke when I moved up. ...

Broke?

 

[buca3152]

My experience has been the same although I use various hones when I used dmts. The 1k becomes VERY important to clean dmt scratches as well as the 600 scratches.

 

[Gamma]

A bevel is a bevel, 1k King or 2k Shapton Pro or 1k Chosera - doesnt matter. If its set, its set.
People set bevels on 4k Nortons for ages, and Ive set plenty of bevels on a 3k Chosera.

 

[buca3152]

A bevel is a bevel, 1k King or 2k Shapton Pro or 1k Chosera - doesnt matter. If its set, its set.
People set bevels on 4k Nortons for ages, and I e set plenty of bevels on a 3k Chosera.

Are you saying diamond plates are equivalent to hones(rocks)? And that the sharp crystalline structure of diamonds doesnt affect the edge at all? As in cutting deeper scratches and possible micro chips?

 

[aephilli]

You should (theoretically) be able to put a bevel on a blunt piece of steel with any abrasive given enough time. (I say "you" meaning anyone other than me, because I can't seem to make anything sharp at this time) Jumping from 600 to 3000 might take a looooooooooooong time, but eventually should work? (again, assuming higher abilities than mine)

 

[totorlekiller]

Broke?

What I mean is that after Dmt I can shave hair of my arms easily. After moving to finer stones, I can't anymore.
Since that did not make sense, I tried a few times. Same results.

 

[buca3152]

I have passed hht pre strop after a 1200 dmt. I believe(im not a scientist) that the serrations are large and can be toothy at this stage so the teeth catch the hair. Similar to what happens with the TNT. You can feel it at the 1k easily digging into your thumbnail, but when the razor is done, it just slides on the nail. I have no experience at all with using gems as hones, so wont comment on that.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Are you saying diamond plates are equivalent to hones(rocks)? And that the sharp crystalline structure of diamonds doesnt affect the edge at all? As in cutting deeper scratches and possible micro chips?

I've honed razors several thousand times in the past decade. I scope the vast majority of them to a level that maybe three other guys I've seen do. DMT's do not cause chips in any razors, ever. I've also purchased many, many razors from people, which were in use prior to their sale to me, to find a great deal of microchipping in them, regardless of the hones they were sharpened on. It seems people are selectively aware of these issues, and if they have a reason to find them, they will. If not, they'll use the same microchipped razor for years, and just put up with the irritation such can cause.

People fail to properly hone and either leave damage in the blade that they should have removed on the coarser hones and didn't or progress before the edge is prepared sufficiently, leaving the tooth of the <1.2k edge in the blade, essentially polishing a blade that hasn't been progressed to the point where it can cut a beard smoothly. They blame their failings on the plates, or the coticule, or whatever hone it is they decide is at fault rather than themselves.

Deeper scratches, certainly (Mind you avg not max, and max is what is important); yet these deeper scratches take less time to remove than the increased edge irregularity off any honing medium I've had the opportunity to use in the same region; though I suspect film may offer similar functionality. Where this doesn't hold true is with the use of methods such as unicot or with pasted strops. The paste cutting the final edge off makes prior bevel condition more important than edge condition outside of extreme irregularities. In honing finished on stones at or extremely near original angle, bevel condition is of virtually no importance when contrasted with edge condition.

Yes, edges with excessive tooth will often create the illusion of superior cutting ability in certain materials if the test used allows such (HHT root out, anyone?); learning to identify these tests and results is part of honing.

 

[oakeshott]

What I mean is that after Dmt I can shave hair of my arms easily. After moving to finer stones, I can't anymore.
Since that did not make sense, I tried a few times. Same results.

I had this exact same thing after I first got my DMT 600. What I realized (incorrectly or not) is that it left an edge which shaved hair, but no bevel. In fact, using the 600 DMT meant I needed to be especially careful and thorough with the C1k. The other thing to notice is that a correct bevel, when testing on arm hair, feels quite different than when your edge does the same thing off the DMT. I was so astonished by this that I purposely tried it over and over again. As Buca suggests above, it felt like the hairs were catching in the teeth of the blade rather than being cut.

 

[aephilli]

What I mean is that after Dmt I can shave hair of my arms easily. After moving to finer stones, I can't anymore.
Since that did not make sense, I tried a few times. Same results.

That's what I thought, but wanted to be sure.


(prolly shoulda kept my ignorant trap shut and let other more experienced members sort it out for you, tho.)

 

[SliceOfLife]

It's also quite possible he's simply rolling his edge; Easy to do going to excessively hard stones at low grits. To check for this, just do one back-stroke (spine first) on either side, then see if you're cutting again. If not, you need to go back down and rebevel.

 

[aephilli]

It's also quite possible he's simply rolling his edge; Easy to do going to excessively hard stones at low grits. ....

This is caused by too much pressure on the stone?

 

[buca3152]

I've honed razors several thousand times in the past decade. I scope the vast majority of them to a level that maybe three other guys I've seen do. DMT's do not cause chips in any razors, ever. I've also purchased many, many razors from people, which were in use prior to their sale to me, to find a great deal of microchipping in them, regardless of the hones they were sharpened on. It seems people are selectively aware of these issues, and if they have a reason to find them, they will. If not, they'll use the same microchipped razor for years, and just put up with the irritation such can cause.

People fail to properly hone and either leave damage in the blade that they should have removed on the coarser hones and didn't or progress before the edge is prepared sufficiently, leaving the tooth of the <1.2k edge in the blade, essentially polishing a blade that hasn't been progressed to the point where it can cut a beard smoothly. They blame their failings on the plates, or the coticule, or whatever hone it is they decide is at fault rather than themselves.

Deeper scratches, certainly (Mind you avg not max, and max is what is important); yet these deeper scratches take less time to remove than the increased edge irregularity off any honing medium I've had the opportunity to use in the same region; though I suspect film may offer similar functionality. Where this doesn't hold true is with the use of methods such as unicot or with pasted strops. The paste cutting the final edge off makes prior bevel condition more important than edge condition outside of extreme irregularities. In honing finished on stones at or extremely near original angle, bevel condition is of virtually no importance when contrasted with edge condition.

Yes, edges with excessive tooth will often create the illusion of superior cutting ability in certain materials if the test used allows such (HHT root out, anyone?); learning to identify these tests and results is part of honing.

My opinion of using dmts is that the substrate is a zinc coated plate and is unyielding which adds to the chipping issue. Softer binders in hones have some give. I have no desire to tell someone not to use one. BUT I only use them when I have to do some serious correction. And sometimes thats not worth it as the amount of strokes to clean a dmt edge on a stone takes more time than the time I "saved" by using a diamond plate. Obviously it works for you and there are others without these issues, BUT there are many who have experienced the same as I. A word of caution is what I am offering up, if you have no issues great. I have dmts BTW from 120 to 8k. They are rarely used.

 

[HonerSimpson]

The reason is that the DMT 600 edge is convex with a very keen edge. So it is keen but not sharp.
(see my definitions of keen and sharp).
When you move to the 3000 grit stone, the very edge will not contact the stone until you remove a fair amount of steel.
Does your ruby produce much swarf? You should produce at least as much as you normally see with the 1k.

 

[buca3152]

Why would a dmt produce a convex edge? And is it unique in your opinion to the grit rating or thats its a diamond plate? And what evidence do you have that it is as you say?

 

[SliceOfLife]

How are you measuring width? As an average, a min or a max? DMT's have representatively close min/max values to the avg, which is why they are ideal for progression stones, but poor finishing stones. How these work with minimally abrasive surfaces such as polished gemstones, I can't really say. In my experience, not well. Why, because these surfaces are best at reducing extreme outlying issues (which isolate themselves by extending well out of the avg plane formed in the bevel/avg line formed in the edge), but very inefficient at progressing an edge with few outlying areas. However DMT's work extremely well with ultra-fine and fast whetstones, such as higher grit Jsynths and Thuri's. They are good, but in my opinion not substantially better with less regular/fast alternatives such as coticules, arks, and most other slates.

There does not seem to be any convexing from my DMT 600. I just reset a bevel on it, went straight to a Jnat finisher, and in three strokes was already seeing jnat scratches contacting the edge under 400x.

This is caused by too much pressure on the stone?

I suspect it's actually caused by improper flipping, but I can't say for sure. I encounter it from time to time. At this point using my lower grit stones is so mechanical I never pay enough attention to recognize what caused it, but it's never happened two times in a row, and it's always the same effect; razor feels just like you dulled it on a bottle, but a single stropping motion brings it back. I can only assume a rolled edge is what is causing this.

 

[Heespharm]

I've set my last 10 bevels on dmt cards 600 and 1200 works really well sounds like you need to bring a 1200 too

 

[HonerSimpson]

Why would a dmt produce a convex edge? And is it unique in your opinion to the grit rating or thats its a diamond plate? And what evidence do you have that it is as you say?

This is a result of the fact that the diamonds are both fixed and fast cutting. The very edge is either cut or deflected away from the hone, and on the return stroke, the deflected "tooth" is sheared off, leaving a "micro" convex edge. I'm not sure it would be visible on a cheap optical scope, but there are quality images floating around that demonstrate my point.

 

[buca3152]

This is a result of the fact that the diamonds are both fixed and fast cutting. The very edge is either cut or deflected away from the hone, and on the return stroke, the deflected "tooth" is sheared off, leaving a "micro" convex edge. I'm not sure it would be visible on a cheap optical scope, but there are quality images floating around that demonstrate my point.

Well if you come across proof of this I would like to see it. My observations have been similar to what Ive read here about the edges coming in line relatively easily, no evidence of "missing" the edge so I will say my mind hasnt changed about it.