How to Use CrOx, Red Paste, and Black Paste to Maintain Your Edge?

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

I'm curious about how guys use pastes such as Stangen Pasta (see below) and CrOx to maintain their razors.

Here's a link to how I use these pastes following honing. Yes, the pastes are applied to strops of various sorts which is why I put this in the stropping section.

It occurs to me that the other main use of the pastes is to keep the edge sharp as long as possible between honing sessions, but exactly what the best regimen for doing that is unclear to me.

If you use the pastes, how do you use them? How many laps? How often? Anything to make the process clearer would be useful to me.

The product pictured is two very small, long lasting bars of soft compounds. One is Red. On, Black. Thus Red&Black.

I've seen published information on the micron sizes of the pastes.

• CrOx (published micron sizes from 0.5 to 4)
• Red (published micron sizes 2-4)
• Black (no published micron sizes found by me, but published information that it is finer than the Red and should be used after the Red).

I'm aware that not all CrOx is the same, etc. Mine is the XL bar sold by Shave Nation; it should last roughly 5000 years if I share it with five neighbors.

My guess is most CrOx is not 0.5 microns, but what do I know?

Generally, what I find is suggestions to use the Crox first. Then, the Red followed by the Black. That's what I've been doing (at the end of my honing process). I'm pretty pleased with the edges I'm getting. I believe my edges improved when I added the Red&Black.

However, I'm not sure how to use the pastes in the edge maintenance process.

What I've been doing is to go through the CrOx, Red, Black series when the edge seems a bit in need. It seems to help a lot.

I'm considering daily "polishing" on the Black followed by my normal leather stropping, but I'm concerned this might be foolish (and I think daily stropping on CrOx would be foolish, but I must be clear here and state that I really don't know anything).

Obviously I have to figure this out myself to a degree. There's the usual YMMV stuff and probably not much science and actual data, but I'm still interested in your experiences and procedures.

I know a lot of gentlemen use the diamond pasted balsa and such, but I'm not interested in going that route right now. I know too there are pastes other than the ones I have; for instance Keith @Gamma has a product line which includes pastes, but I've only used the pastes - CrOx, Red, Black - mentioned already.

I'm pretty much interested in anything paste related, but I'm not fired up about buying more strops to use a bunch of new pastes. Not that I'd rule it out.

Yes, I clean the razor between the various pastes and also before the final stropping on leather so as to not contaminate tools by cross pollination.

Thanks for any pointers, advice, comments, criticisms, and help.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Alum of Potash]

My take on this tends to be at the end of the spectrum for what it's worth. So please take it with the requisite grain of salt. The Solingen red and black crayons are nominally rated at 2-4 and ~0,5 microns respectively. This is just a starting point as the micron rating diminishes as the abrasive in question sinks into the support. You mention crox, but the crox crayon in Solingen speak is the Puma stangen pasta. Whether or not this equates to the Solingen green tube paste is debatable, but if so, as sometimes acknowledged, then it is the coarser of the three. Traditionally, these are used on the Solingen loom strops, which provide around 1-5/8" x < 8" of stropping surface. From what I have observed from professional users in France, this is done with a ~3 very short, lateral biassed laps for starters, followed by a few more laps using the strop's full length (albeit short) as needed.

I'm not a fan of balsa with these pastes, apart from larger, bench-mounted versions for touch-ups on knives, as balsa is relatively rigid when stropping razors with a fixed spine-edge relationship, but both the small Solingen loom strops and the small Solingen sponge/felt lined paddle strops work well for hollowed razors. The paste is loaded by first rubbing it into the pad of the thumb and then rubbing this into the Russian leather surface until it all has been covered and rubbed in with the palm. If you want a larger surface, then a hanging vegetable-tanned strop sanded to 180x and subsequently pasted will do the trick. My favorite here is to glue two light-ounce vegetable-tanned slices back to back to build up thickness that way. And given the vagaries of leather, again it is important to start out with a very few laterally-biassed passes, before launching into the strop taken at full length for a few more passes, if that. If using the hanging strop pasted, pull it tauter than you would with plain leather, but not so taut that it risks to stretch things.

Also, perhaps it might be better to think of these more as descending extensions of the stropping process, rather than ascending extensions of the honing process. Not that I have this figured out; it's just something that I wonder about from time to time.

 

[Jnatcat]

I played around with .5 and .25 CrOx and paste and I am sure some swear by it but I find the edge I get off my favorite JNAT just more desirable

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

My take on this tends to be at the end of the spectrum for what it's worth. So please take it with the requisite grain of salt. The Solingen red and black crayons are nominally rated at 2-4 and ~0,5 microns respectively. This is just a starting point as the micron rating diminishes as the abrasive in question sinks into the support. You mention crox, but the crox crayon in Solingen speak is the Puma stangen pasta. Whether or not this equates to the Solingen green tube paste is debatable, but if so, as sometimes acknowledged, then it is the coarser of the three. Traditionally, these are used on the Solingen loom strops, which provide around 1-5/8" x < 8" of stropping surface. From what I have observed from professional users in France, this is done with a ~3 very short, lateral biassed laps for starters, followed by a few more laps using the strop's full length (albeit short) as needed.

I'm not a fan of balsa with these pastes, apart from larger, bench-mounted versions for touch-ups on knives, as balsa is relatively rigid when stropping razors with a fixed spine-edge relationship, but both the small Solingen loom strops and the small Solingen sponge/felt lined paddle strops work well for hollowed razors. The paste is loaded by first rubbing it into the pad of the thumb and then rubbing this into the Russian leather surface until it all has been covered and rubbed in with the palm. If you want a larger surface, then a hanging vegetable-tanned strop sanded to 180x and subsequently pasted will do the trick. My favorite here is to glue two light-ounce vegetable-tanned slices back to back to build up thickness that way. And given the vagaries of leather, again it is important to start out with a very few laterally-biassed passes, before launching into the strop taken at full length for a few more passes, if that. If using the hanging strop pasted, pull it tauter than you would with plain leather, but not so taut that it risks to stretch things.

Also, perhaps it might be better to think of these more as descending extensions of the stropping process, rather than ascending extensions of the honing process. Not that I have this figured out; it's just something that I wonder about from time to time.

Thank you. I will read this food for thought post many times.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

My take on this tends to be at the end of the spectrum for what it's worth. So please take it with the requisite grain of salt. The Solingen red and black crayons are nominally rated at 2-4 and ~0,5 microns respectively. This is just a starting point as the micron rating diminishes as the abrasive in question sinks into the support. You mention crox, but the crox crayon in Solingen speak is the Puma stangen pasta. Whether or not this equates to the Solingen green tube paste is debatable, but if so, as sometimes acknowledged, then it is the coarser of the three. Traditionally, these are used on the Solingen loom strops, which provide around 1-5/8" x < 8" of stropping surface. From what I have observed from professional users in France, this is done with a ~3 very short, lateral biassed laps for starters, followed by a few more laps using the strop's full length (albeit short) as needed.

I'm not a fan of balsa with these pastes, apart from larger, bench-mounted versions for touch-ups on knives, as balsa is relatively rigid when stropping razors with a fixed spine-edge relationship, but both the small Solingen loom strops and the small Solingen sponge/felt lined paddle strops work well for hollowed razors. The paste is loaded by first rubbing it into the pad of the thumb and then rubbing this into the Russian leather surface until it all has been covered and rubbed in with the palm. If you want a larger surface, then a hanging vegetable-tanned strop sanded to 180x and subsequently pasted will do the trick. My favorite here is to glue two light-ounce vegetable-tanned slices back to back to build up thickness that way. And given the vagaries of leather, again it is important to start out with a very few laterally-biassed passes, before launching into the strop taken at full length for a few more passes, if that. If using the hanging strop pasted, pull it tauter than you would with plain leather, but not so taut that it risks to stretch things.

Also, perhaps it might be better to think of these more as descending extensions of the stropping process, rather than ascending extensions of the honing process. Not that I have this figured out; it's just something that I wonder about from time to time.

I've been "experimenting" with using the Red & Black pastes (above) a bit more often. As far as I can tell so far more frequent use of these pastes (without the CrOx) has advantages and no downsides.

Not that I'm saying I have any idea about the "right way" to use the pastes.

perhaps it might be better to think of these more as descending extensions of the stropping process, rather than ascending extensions of the honing process

I kinda sorta thinking of the pastes as an extension of the stropping process (a pre-stropping strop if you will). So far, so good.

I'm fairly amazed the pastes don't get more love here on the B&B forum. There's no doubt in my mind that using these pastes (along with CrOX) has been a valuable ascending extension to my honing process. I think the pastes are also a useful descending extension of stropping.

Occasionally I search Google and other places for information on these pastes and how to use them. There is some information and some speculation. I'm interested in how gentlemen actually use them and the results.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Alum of Potash]

Glad to hear it. I checked your link, and your bench strop with the feet looks a lot like the bench strops I use for my knives. At the risk of enabling, I'd be curious to hear what you think of using these pastes on the small Solingen loom and foam (felt?) lined paddle strops.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Glad to hear it. I checked your link, and your bench strop with the feet looks a lot like the bench strops I use for my knives. At the risk of enabling, I'd be curious to hear what you think of using these pastes on the small Solingen loom and foam (felt?) lined paddle strops.

Are you talking about this one? Link.

Really, I don't know anything about using the pastes other than the bit I've read and the minute of experience I've had, so I'm not the one to ask anything of substance.

When I was thinking about buying stuff to use with the pastes I decided instead of spending money to use the kit I already had on hand; I was pretty broke right then. That meant using the black strop for the Black paste, and the little red bridle leather board strop for the Red paste. I was already using the back side of my linen strop for CrOx and the large Professional Strop for regular leather stropping. I didn't want to buy anything else if I could avoid it.

Seems to me my kit is working well with the pastes, but I don't have anything to compare it with so how would I know?

I would guess the strop you suggested is probably better, but here I am with strops already pasted and limited funds (unless my lottery ticket is a winner).

You use a strop like the one linked?

Here's another similar item. Link. Its writeup says not to use it very often at all. I see various opinions on frequency of use.

I also found this information (below) about a Devo paste (not necessarily the paste I use).

Not saying I know anything because I don't.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Seveneighth]

View attachment 950825


View attachment 950829
Are you talking about this one? Link.

Really, I don't know anything about using the pastes other than the bit I've read and the minute of experience I've had, so I'm not the one to ask anything of substance.

View attachment 950814

When I was thinking about buying stuff to use with the pastes I decided instead of spending money to use the kit I already had on hand; I was pretty broke right then. That meant using the black strop for the Black paste, and the little red bridle leather board strop for the Red paste. I was already using the back side of my linen strop for CrOx and the large Professional Strop for regular leather stropping. I didn't want to buy anything else if I could avoid it.

Seems to me my kit is working well with the pastes, but I don't have anything to compare it with so how would I know?

I would guess the strop you suggested is probably better, but here I am with strops already pasted and limited funds (unless my lottery ticket is a winner).

You use a strop like the one linked?
View attachment 950831

Here's another similar item. Link. Its writeup says not to use it very often at all. I see various opinions on frequency of use.

I also found this information (below) about a Devo paste (not necessarily the paste I use).

View attachment 950832

Not saying I know anything because I don't.

Happy shaves,

Jim

I have both. They are tricky with a straight razor but the black pasted one is particularly effective.

 

[Alum of Potash]

Given the swarf that accumulates in using the Solingen red crayon paste, I'm inclined to stick with the 2-4 micron rating, although it probably lessens in sinking into the substrate, like I mentioned. Same with the black crayon paste rated at around 0.5-1 microns. The way I was shown to apply them was to sand vegetable-tanned leather and that's what I do. But whatever works is good! I have the foam (felt?) lined paddle you linked (the two links look to be the same style), and it works very well from my experience. Otherwise, I use the pasted strops hanging and pulling them somewhat tauter than I would with plain leather. Sometimes, I will use the red pasted strop after a coticule to bring up the edge a bit. But the black strop I mostly use for touch-ups, descending to the red strop as needed, both of them being used occasionally, not daily.

My sense is that a sanded leather surface accepts more paste than a smooth leather surface. This too may affect results, with the sanded leather surfaces somewhat smoothing over from the wax in the paste itself, sort of like shining one's shoes.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Given the swarf that accumulates in using the Solingen red crayon paste, I'm inclined to stick with the 2-4 micron rating, although it probably lessens in sinking into the substrate, like I mentioned. Same with the black crayon paste rated at around 0.5-1 microns. The way I was shown to apply them was to sand vegetable-tanned leather and that's what I do. But whatever works is good! I have the foam (felt?) lined paddle you linked (the two links look to be the same style), and it works very well from my experience. Otherwise, I use the pasted strops hanging and pulling them somewhat tauter than I would with plain leather. Sometimes, I will use the red pasted strop after a coticule to bring up the edge a bit. But the black strop I mostly use for touch-ups, descending to the red strop as needed, both of them being used occasionally, not daily.

My sense is that a sanded leather surface accepts more paste than a smooth leather surface. This too may affect results, with the sanded leather surfaces somewhat smoothing over from the wax in the paste itself, sort of like shining one's shoes.

Interesting. I've not seen any swarf yet, but I've not used the red paste very many times (maybe ten times or so).

Sometimes, I will use the red pasted strop after a coticule to bring up the edge a bit. But the black strop I mostly use for touch-ups, descending to the red strop as needed, both of them being used occasionally, not daily.

How often is occasionally for you? Just a rough guesstimate would be helpful to me.

I have both. They are tricky with a straight razor but the black pasted one is particularly effective.

How often do you use it (with any particular razor)?

I know there are no absolutes here. I'm just trying to get a feel for what various gentlemen actually do with the pastes.

Thanks,

Jim

 

[Seveneighth]

How often do you use it (with any particular razor)?

I know there are no absolutes here. I'm just trying to get a feel for what various gentlemen actually do with the pastes.

Thanks,

Jim

Jim, i think we discussed this on another thread previously h.

Prepped plain leather paddle strop. (2k wet ndry followed by neatsfoot)
If the razor.skips with minimal pressure onto either a light jewellers rouge on similar leather
Back to leather to test
If no good to black
Back to leather
To red black leather etc

It's dictated by the strop performance rather than a frequency

Now having said that I find the black paste best with stainless razors. I used to only shave with vintage Sheffields and with those I basically used 3 strops:
dressed leather,
leather dressed with Tripoli ( just increases the draw really)
Leather with heavier jewelers rouge.

Since discovering the Solingen pastes I have been using those and they work with harder steels

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Jim, i think we discussed this on another thread previously h.

Prepped plain leather paddle strop. (2k wet ndry followed by neatsfoot)
If the razor.skips with minimal pressure onto either a light jewellers rouge on similar leather
Back to leather to test
If no good to black
Back to leather
To red black leather etc

It's dictated by the strop performance rather than a frequency

Now having said that I find the black paste best with stainless razors. I used to only shave with vintage Sheffields and with those I basically used 3 strops:
dressed leather,
leather dressed with Tripoli ( just increases the draw really)
Leather with heavier jewelers rouge.

Since discovering the Solingen pastes I have been using those and they work with harder steels

Thank you. That helps. Sometimes I don't get things the first time. Sorry for that.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Alum of Potash]

Interesting. I've not seen any swarf yet, but I've not used the red paste very many times (maybe ten times or so).



How often is occasionally for you? Just a rough guesstimate would be helpful to me.

It's hard to say, really, it's when the edge seems to be falling off, or according to my mood and where I am. Maybe after 20 shaves or so, generally-speaking. I use around 3 very short, laterally-biassed laps followed by maybe 8-10 X-pass laps using the full length of the strop (2"-wide hanging or the small paddles). More laps with the red paste if coming off a coticule. I like to think of them as stropping equivalents of AJ's purple and "Welsh Thuringian" slates, although this is a pretty simplistic analogy.

The Russian leather paddle as sold by Herold does not need to be sanded as it has the requisite tooth to receive the pastes.

 

[seattleshaver]

I hone and then finish with chrome oxide and iron oxide. I use those on a paddle strop. Whenever my razor is starting to pull a little I'll go to those two paddle strops again.

Sometimes, I go to my 12k? hone and then to the pastes to maintain. As long as I'm getting good shaves I don't worry too much about what I'm doing. Sometimes I don't use pastes at all, I stop the honing process at 12k and when it's time to maintain I just go back to the 12k.

 

[dundak]

I see pastes as an extension of stropping. I try to avoid hones as much as possible. How often you have to use pastes depends on how well you can maintain a razor with stropping. Some folks can go a week some can go 6 months with just leather and linen. Strop on your finest paste when you feel the razor is not performing to your expectations.

My preference is a loom strop 1 1/2” x 6”. I use Dovo red, work it in with my thumbs then work the leather with a Speedball roller to press the abrasive into the leather.

I’ve also used denim loom strips that are treated with polishing pastes like Mother’s and such with good success.

If you want to buy a loom strop look for a Herold 56RI.

My dad used to use waxed and chalked linen strops that he treated with a fine white polishing paste. Sorry cannot recall what brand it was. Probably no longer available.


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[Seveneighth]

It's hard to say, really, it's when the edge seems to be falling off, or according to my mood and where I am. Maybe after 20 shaves or so, generally-speaking. I use around 3 very short, laterally-biassed laps followed by maybe 8-10 X-pass laps using the full length of the strop (2"-wide hanging or the small paddles). More laps with the red paste if coming off a coticule. I like to think of them as stropping equivalents of AJ's purple and "Welsh Thuringian" slates, although this is a pretty simplistic analogy.

The Russian leather paddle as sold by Herold does not need to be sanded as it has the requisite tooth to receive the pastes.

That reminds me - it's quite nice to use the pastes, then go back to the coticule to get that coti feel and then finish on leather.

 

[bluesman 7]

@dundak, are you in Europe? Just curious as paste use seems to be regional to a fairly large degree.

I only have one razor that I used paste on as an experiment. Coming off of a 6k King I used CrOx on a cotton belt with the belt lying on a table and got a somewhat harsh edge, but three light laps on a clean, slack, leather strop followed by regular stropping mellowed it nicely.

The experiment was to see how much could be done with very low investment in honing stones.

 

[Seveneighth]

I see pastes as an extension of stropping. I try to avoid hones as much as possible. How often you have to use pastes depends on how well you can maintain a razor with stropping. Some folks can go a week some can go 6 months with just leather and linen. Strop on your finest paste when you feel the razor is not performing to your expectations.

My preference is a loom strop 1 1/2” x 6”. I use Dovo red, work it in with my thumbs then work the leather with a Speedball roller to press the abrasive into the leather.

I’ve also used denim loom strips that are treated with polishing pastes like Mother’s and such with good success.

If you want to buy a loom strop look for a Herold 56RI.

My dad used to use waxed and chalked linen strops that he treated with a fine white polishing paste. Sorry cannot recall what brand it was. Probably no longer available.


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Dovo make a white paste for canvas/ linen strops. It does seem to increase the friction a little.

 

[Seveneighth]

@dundak, are you in Europe? Just curious as paste use seems to be regional to a fairly large degree.

I only have one razor that I used paste on as an experiment. I used CrOx on a cotton belt with the belt lying on a table and got a somewhat harsh edge, but three light laps on a clean, slack, leather strop followed by regular stropping mellowed it nicely.

The way I was taught to use a strop was to regularly treat it and to have a second more heavily pasted strop as well to refresh a tired blade. In my family we always used jewelers pastes. There were no specific compounds discussed. The only differentiation was something like Tripoli with neatsfoot for the main strop. As I understand it, Tripoli is not abrasive enough to take steel - it's intended for softer metals.

Back in the 80s it was a lot harder to get your hands on the type of compounds available today - you made do and the only compounds were from the jewellery traid. It was a lot less scientific.

I am in the UK.

 

[dundak]

@dundak, are you in Europe? Just curious as paste use seems to be regional to a fairly large degree.

I only have one razor that I used paste on as an experiment. Coming off of a 6k King I used CrOx on a cotton belt with the belt lying on a table and got a somewhat harsh edge, but three light laps on a clean, slack, leather strop followed by regular stropping mellowed it nicely.

The experiment was to see how much could be done with very low investment in honing stones.

No. Most of what I learned came from my family. My grandfather and his brothers were grinders. They all eventually went into the steel industry after WWII because the straight industry collapsed. They all used straights as did my father and uncles. My mom’s side of the family had quite a few barbers. I just picked up a lot of oral history. My first shave was quite the event. I had so many eyes on me it was like taking an exam. Lol. They had a mantra to maintain an edge so you never have to build one. The least material you remove from a razor the better.

I was taught and found out that I can maintain a razor for a long time with pastes and leather. They always emphasized stropping as the key to straight shaving and the foundation of your technique. One razor, one stone, one strop. That’s all you need.





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