How often can I hone

[Tranqville]

I recently reset the bevel and honed my SR. After about five shaves (3+ passes each), I felt the razor started to pull a little bit; did a touch up on crox but that did not help much. Took out my Norton 4k/8k and honed my razor a bit. Polished on crox, stropped and, here we go, did a very decent shave. I feel I lack maybe that 5% of sharpness but overall by all means its shave ready.

How often can I really hone my razor? What do I do if it is tugging again after a few shaves? What are the risks involved in honing often - wearing up the spine and shoulders? Overhoning and then having to reset the bevel? Losing the blade geometry and angle with time?

How many times can I reset the bevel before the razor deteriorates significantly in some way? It's 6/8 inch, 3/4 hollow grind.

I often hear in this forum that with proper maintenance (stropping, pastes on balsa etc) the razor can be maintained almost indefinitely. I have not been so lucky so far and need to come back to hones. Is it ok if I touch up on hones lightly every couple of weeks or so?

Kind of relevant question - why do people buy weekly sets? As I understand, the amount of maintenance (stropping, honing etc) should be about the same? Or do those proud weekly set owners ship all the razors to a pro honer once in a blue moon and forget about it?

I found that I love honing, but I just want to make sure I don't overdo it.

 

[Mike H]

As your technique improves, the need to go back to the stones will diminish. It took me forever to get a shave ready edge when I was learning, congratulations.

That being said, the pasted strop should have brought the razor back after 5 shaves without a problem. When stropping your razor, you are keeping the blade flat against the leather?

 

[Tranqville]

I think my stropping technique now is pretty decent and I keep the razor flat.

Perhaps I have not spent enough time on crox, but I just feel that crox should not be used too much. From my very limited experience, too much crox leaves a harsh edge that does not hold well.

 

[bluesman 7]

It is said that letting the razor rest improves the edge. This sounds more like superstition to me, but I have seen evidence supporting it. To me, the best reason for multiple razors is that you can constantly compare them. If razor A shaves worse than razor B, work on A until it is as good or better than B. If you can make it better than B, now work on B until it is as good or better than A. This keeps raising the bar. A seven day set I think is a way to keep them all straight, and lets face it, there cool.

Kind of relevant question - why do people buy weekly sets? As I understand, the amount of maintenance (stropping, honing etc) should be about the same? Or do those proud weekly set owners ship all the razors to a pro honer once in a blue moon and forget about it?


I found that I love honing, but I just want to make sure I don't overdo it.

I understand where your coming from, but the worst that can happen is that you will have to buy another razor. If you love honing, it may be cheaper to do this that continually buy razors from the bay, just so you can hone them.

 

[seattleshaver]

If your honing, stropping, and shaving technique is good you shouldn't have to touch up after a few shaves so something can be improved It should require much time with crox either so it sounds like maybe you aren't helping the blade with your stropping and might be hurting it.

If the edge was initially sharp and you aren't doing anything to make it worse just regular stropping should keep it sharp for longer than a few shaves.

On the other hand, you can do a touch up hone as often as you like.

 

[BDF]

You should, and probably will, get more than three shaves out of a razor with nothing more than stropping. Even stropping is not required; look how many shaves most people get out of a DE or cartridge razor.

You should not have to go back to a 4K hone ever really. Once the geometry is set and an edge is acheived, I have not had to go beyond 1 micron film, or about 14K, for a re- hone. And crox on a piece of balsa should make a razor quite useful for a long, long time- perhaps forever if it is hard balsa (it will maintain the bevel geometry).

You can hone as often as you want, the only downside besides the time spent (and that is not a bad thing either) is wear on the razor.

Five day and Seven day sets: an older means of showing excess for the affluent, along with supporting the notion that the edge or 'fin' "grows back" over several days. Someone has confused steel with barnacles but I digress. Multiple razors allow most to rest and re-grow the fin (yeah, that's it).... and have a razor or two out being honed, and one being used, all at the same time. Having a set allows the user to shave with the same physical type of razor each day instead of using all different size, shape and types of razors mixed up.

Brian

I recently reset the bevel and honed my SR. After about five shaves (3+ passes each), I felt the razor started to pull a little bit; did a touch up on crox but that did not help much. Took out my Norton 4k/8k and honed my razor a bit. Polished on crox, stropped and, here we go, did a very decent shave. I feel I lack maybe that 5% of sharpness but overall by all means its shave ready.

How often can I really hone my razor? What do I do if it is tugging again after a few shaves? What are the risks involved in honing often - wearing up the spine and shoulders? Overhoning and then having to reset the bevel? Losing the blade geometry and angle with time?

How many times can I reset the bevel before the razor deteriorates significantly in some way? It's 6/8 inch, 3/4 hollow grind.

I often hear in this forum that with proper maintenance (stropping, pastes on balsa etc) the razor can be maintained almost indefinitely. I have not been so lucky so far and need to come back to hones. Is it ok if I touch up on hones lightly every couple of weeks or so?

Kind of relevant question - why do people buy weekly sets? As I understand, the amount of maintenance (stropping, honing etc) should be about the same? Or do those proud weekly set owners ship all the razors to a pro honer once in a blue moon and forget about it?

I found that I love honing, but I just want to make sure I don't overdo it.

 

[Alum of Potash]

If you look through the threads, you'll find a famous one by Doc226, who achieved something like 135 shaves with a razor after honing, using just leather. On the other end of the spectrum, back on the old coticule.be website, the recommendation was to do a touch-up honing once a week. Premature dulling may meant that either your stropping is off or your blade angle is too steep when shaving. Concentrate on getting your stropping technique down and keep your spine as close to your face as possible and see if this helps.

 

[Gamma]

Premature dulling may also mean the edge wasn't 'on the money' to start with.

According to my barber - the common honing cycle for the average Joe was 1-2 times a year for most people and daily they used leather/linen.

 

[Tranqville]

Premature dulling may also mean the edge was 'on the money' to start with.

According to my barber - the common honing cycle for the average Joe was 1-2 times a year for most people and daily they used leather/linen.

It's quite possible I did not set the bevel perfectly. I guess I have to keep honing and hopefully the edge will improve with time.

 

[Tranqville]

Concentrate on getting your stropping technique down and keep your spine as close to your face as possible and see if this helps.

I found the feel and sound of stropping that feels about right - at first, the blade was "singing" too much. I found that I can get nice feedback/drag without that "singing" sound. Still need to get that more consistent, but overall it looks good. I guess I also did not spend enough time on the strop, especially the canvas side. I stropped very thoroughly today and noticed improvement in sharpness, the edge really bites the thumb-pad.

 

[Alum of Potash]

I found the feel and sound of stropping that feels about right - at first, the blade was "singing" too much. I found that I can get nice feedback/drag without that "singing" sound. Still need to get that more consistent, but overall it looks good. I guess I also did not spend enough time on the strop, especially the canvas side. I stropped very thoroughly today and noticed improvement in sharpness, the edge really bites the thumb-pad.

Sounds good, although I'm more inclined to do an HHT at this stage. I find that the sound and feel is affected by the tension of the strop and the state of the edge. To adjust this, I first pull the strop taut as a reference, and then slacken the tension as needed or desired. The Walkin' Horse horsebutt strop is nice IMO because it reacts to the the state of the edge. As the fineness of the edge increases, it seems to have a lighter draw; if the edge is not so fine, it has increased draw. Maybe this is the same with other strops, I just haven't noticed it as much as with this one.

Again, blade angle on the face is important. You can dull an edge with too much "scraping."

 

[Slash McCoy]

I recently reset the bevel and honed my SR. After about five shaves (3+ passes each), I felt the razor started to pull a little bit; did a touch up on crox but that did not help much. Took out my Norton 4k/8k and honed my razor a bit. Polished on crox, stropped and, here we go, did a very decent shave. I feel I lack maybe that 5% of sharpness but overall by all means its shave ready.

How often can I really hone my razor? What do I do if it is tugging again after a few shaves? What are the risks involved in honing often - wearing up the spine and shoulders? Overhoning and then having to reset the bevel? Losing the blade geometry and angle with time?

How many times can I reset the bevel before the razor deteriorates significantly in some way? It's 6/8 inch, 3/4 hollow grind.

I often hear in this forum that with proper maintenance (stropping, pastes on balsa etc) the razor can be maintained almost indefinitely. I have not been so lucky so far and need to come back to hones. Is it ok if I touch up on hones lightly every couple of weeks or so?

Kind of relevant question - why do people buy weekly sets? As I understand, the amount of maintenance (stropping, honing etc) should be about the same? Or do those proud weekly set owners ship all the razors to a pro honer once in a blue moon and forget about it?

I found that I love honing, but I just want to make sure I don't overdo it.

A touchup only requires the finest stone used when the razor was honed. In your case, your 8k. A dozen laps should be plenty unless you are damaging your edge in some way. A dozen light laps every week or two is not going to wear your razor out any time soon. So if you want to do it, then do it. You could also get a 12k Naniwa for a finisher, and then do your touchup on that, for a little less wear and a little better polish on the edge. One oldschool trick is to hone with lather on the finishing stone. Often a barber hone was used with lather. The idea is the lather stands the razor slightly off the hone so that the grit doesn't scratch as deeply. The way to make it work is to first hone with water, then wash the stone clean of all swarf and slurry, apply lather, and hone on the lather, refreshing the lather as needed, reducing pressure gradually until the razor does not even contact the stone at all. That progressively reduces scratch size until the hone is barely touching the steel at all. Try this on your 8k and you should see significant improvement. As a bonus, when you do your touchups on lather only, you put very little wear on the razor.

Keep refining your stropping and shaving technique. Especially keep the shave angle low. No more than a spine thickness of gap should exist between face and the razor's spine. Stretch the skin and watch the pressure. Take your time shaving and stropping.

You should NEVER have to reset the bevel unless you damage the edge. Good honing technique with a good hone will not change the geometry of the razor appreciably. With normal honing, the edge wears in proportion to the spine, and the angle remains the same. You can get a SLIGHT rounding of the edge from having too much slurry on the stone, or lifting the spine, or whatever, but if you are honing properly you can't really over-hone. Yes, it is possible to create a fin edge. However, continued honing will also remove that fin edge, as will stropping. To reduce the possibility of creating a fin edge, lighten up on the pressure. I have put literally thousands of laps on a razor at one sitting and never found evidence of "over-honing". A fin or wire edge mostly is removed by stropping. And this BTW is probably one excellent application for the felt piece on the Big Daddy strop that I otherwise don't use. I am pretty sure no hangnails can survive 4 dozen laps on the felt. So don't worry about over-honing because the worst that can happen that can't be corrected is excessive wear to the razor. Remember, it is just a tool, not a piece of jewelry. But there is also no need to re-set the bevel, or even re-hone on anything coarser than what you finished on.

You can indeed extend the time between touchups, possibly even eliminate them altogether. Get some balsa, 3" wide and 12" long. You might have to buy it 36" long but you can cut it into three pieces and that works fine. Thickness for using in-hand should be 1/2" to 3/4" thick. You can also buy it thinner and glue it to a piece of glass. Glue a whole sheet of 320 grit sandpaper to a perfectly flat surface (countertops usually aren't especially formica ones) such as a 12x12 polished marble tile, or a piece of heavy glass. Work the balsa on the sandpaper until you have created an entirely new and very flat surface on both sides. Apply half a pea size blob of .1u diamond paste to one side, .5u to the other. Www.tedpella.com for the paste. After shaving, hit the fine (.1u) side about 4 dozen laps. This is SPINE leading... stropping, not honing. This should keep you going a long time. If the razor seems to be dulling, consider a higher lap count, but meanwhile hit the coarse side until the edge comes back, then do the normal polishing on the fine side. Of course you still need to strop on hanging leather before the shave. CrOx to me is inferior for this, though it is superior for mellowing down a harsh edge such as you sometimes get from a fine synthetic stone. Whatever you do, don't use so much paste that it coats the balsa. That will severely limit the sharpness you can get from it. You want the abrasive embedded into the grain of the balsa. When you apply it it should seem like it is not even half enough. It should just stain the balsa. Refresh the abrasive once every month or two, depending on how much it gets used.

A pasted balsa strop is not very good for creating an edge. It cuts too slowly. But it is good for maintaining one, and puts only the minimum wear on the razor with the right abrasive. To use more as a hone, go with 1u or coarser diamond. And actually 1u diamond would go well after your 8k, since 1u is roughly 12k JIS grit.

The 7-day set was a good example of Edwardian era conspicuous consumption for the middle or upper classes but particularly middle class. There was a practical reason for it. One only needed his razors honed a couple of times a year, due to them only being used a day out of seven. With the razors matched, shaving with "Tuesday" would be no different from shaving with "Thursday" or "Saturday" or whatever. Gentlemen didn't hone their own razors, even if they shaved themselves. A cutler or a barber would do that. Valets normally didn't hone razors, either, even if they shaved Monseiur. Now, it is simply a prestigious and traditional thing to own, in this day of Shaptons and Naniwas and Coticules and Lapping Films and yes, even the humble Norton combos and C12Ks. Now, it is quite practical to hone ones' own razors and a rotation of two or three is all that is really needed. The "resting period" is IMHO just an urban legend started by some guy trying to figure out how to sell more razors to the same guy who already has one. Sort of like the guy who first put "Instructions" specifying lathering and rinsing TWICE on bottles of shampoo to double the sales. Lather and rinse your hair once and well, and it is just as clean is if you did it twice, but you use half the shampoo. Forget about letting your razor "rest", and use it every day or every other day, and you don't need as many razors. But a nice 7-set conveys considerable pride of ownership on its possessor. And nobody will argue that fewer razors is better than more!

 

[Alum of Potash]

Yes, it is possible to create a fin edge. However, continued honing will also remove that fin edge, as will stropping. [. . .] A fin or wire edge mostly is removed by stropping. And this BTW is probably one excellent application for the felt piece on the Big Daddy strop that I otherwise don't use. I am pretty sure no hangnails can survive 4 dozen laps on the felt.

This strikes me as a pretty cogent argument as to why super finishing stones are not needed, and for letting the strops do the work at the end. One way I've found to eliminate the wire edge or "hangnail" prior to stropping is to put in a little bit of spine-leading backstroke at the start, before making the edge-leading X-stroke proper, with the whole gesture resembling the writing of a check-mark.

 

[Gamma]

Wire edges and foil edges may, or may not be removed by simple stropping.
IME - sropping only relieves only the most minor of these distractions.
Pastes can accommodate this action further, and may be the most simplistic approach.
Clearing a burr, fin, wire, etc on the stone will, for me, yield a more highly refined end result.

Sound on the strop is also affected by the grind - so the audible feedback must be weighed carefully.
Some blades just 'sing' - period. A singing wedge might raise an eyebrow.
I have one razor that sounds markedly different on coming/going strokes. Drives me crazy.

 

[BDF]

As always, it is interesting to hear of different people's approach and experiences. I personally find a very liberal coating of diamond on balsa to work very well, and I find .5 micron diamond cuts very, very fast on balsa also. Same thing with the re-fresh once a month: I am using balsa that has not had any paste (actually spray) added to them for months and months and find they still work as well as day one. Not saying Slash is wrong, just commenting on our different observations and usages.

A little offtopic: The folks that marketed Alka Seltzer were looking for a way to increase sales (and who isn't always doing that?) and came up with the brilliant idea to double the dose recommended: lots of us old enough remember the jingle that went with the new dosage: 'Plop, plop, fizz, fizz, oh, what a relief it is.' Nothing more than a marketing scheme because one 'plop' worked as well.

Brian

<snip>
The "resting period" is IMHO just an urban legend started by some guy trying to figure out how to sell more razors to the same guy who already has one. Sort of like the guy who first put "Instructions" specifying lathering and rinsing TWICE on bottles of shampoo to double the sales. Lather and rinse your hair once and well, and it is just as clean is if you did it twice, but you use half the shampoo.

<snip>