How long can you soak “Soakers”?

[lightfoot]

So my Norton 4/8 combo stone has been submerged for over a week now and every time I use it I can’t believe how much better it works vs soaking it for 15-20 minutes like I did in the past (especially the 4000 side). I would like to try this with my King 1200 as well.
I know that some guys from the past just left them in the water all the time. Granted these were people that were honing full-time.
So is it possible to leave a “soaker” type waterstone in the water too long? Thanks

 

[stone and strop]

Many years ago I had Nortons and I permanently left the 4k submerged, never an issue.
The 8k will turn to mush if you leave it in - at least it used to.
For this reason it is not the best combo stone.
Best to have two separate stones. The 8k is very thirst unless you soak it for at least 5 min.

 

[ables]

On other knife sharpening forums they have lists of perm soaking japanese waterstones. They even tried to make a grand list at one time which involved binder research and experiments. A few googles should pull up the many threads. I would not perm soak the norton 8k as it is basically a splash and go. The king stones can be permasoaked fine I think, i used to leave my 1kds in water.

 

[cotedupy]

So my Norton 4/8 combo stone has been submerged for over a week now and every time I use it I can’t believe how much better it works vs soaking it for 15-20 minutes like I did in the past (especially the 4000 side). I would like to try this with my King 1200 as well.
I know that some guys from the past just left them in the water all the time. Granted these were people that were honing full-time.
So is it possible to leave a “soaker” type waterstone in the water too long? Thanks

You won't damage any resinoid based soaking stone by leaving it permasoaked. I do it to all of mine, both because I like the feel, and because I use them every day and find it convenient.

Funnily enough I started doing that after discovering the effect it had on the King 1200. It's an extraordinarily good stone when permasoaked.

(What you shouldn't do is repeatedly soak them for a long time, then let completely dry for a while, then soak again &c. Either keep permanently soaked, or as short-soak stones.)

 

[cotedupy]

(TBH - outside of naturals you won't damage many stones by permasoaking, though there are a couple of types which are risky...so always worth checking! And for true SnGs it'd be pointless).

 

[RayClem]

Because may honing sessions tend to be sporadic, I like using splash and go type stones that require minimal soaking and can be stored dry. If using Naniwa superstones, I soak them for no more than 10 minutes.

Some folks who hone routinely for hire have some stones that they keep in a bucket of water that has been treated with a small concentration of bleach to prevent bacterial and fungal contamination.

 

[lightfoot]

Because may honing sessions tend to be sporadic, I like using splash and go type stones that require minimal soaking and can be stored dry. If using Naniwa superstones, I soak them for no more than 10 minutes.

Some folks who hone routinely for hire have some stones that they keep in a bucket of water that has been treated with a small concentration of bleach to prevent bacterial and fungal contamination.

Does soaking Naniwa stones do anything other than help them level out?

 

[cotedupy]

Does soaking Naniwa stones do anything other than help them level out?

I have a 3k Superstone that I do permasoak, but that's for convenience - it doesn't affect it in use at all.

Choseras though are one of the types of stones that you shouldn't permasoak.

 

[lightfoot]

I have a 3k Superstone that I do permasoak, but that's for convenience - it doesn't affect it in use at all.

Choseras though are one of the types of stones that you shouldn't permasoak.

Yeah I was referring to the super stone series. I’ve never tried soaking one long term.

 

[RayClem]

Yeah I was referring to the super stone series. I’ve never tried soaking one long term.

I like soaking superstones for a few minutes to make sure both sides of the stone have absorbed similar amount of water. Wetting one surface might be sufficient, but while I am honing on one stone in the progression, I will soak the next stone. I have never tried leaving the stone in a water bath permanently, so I do not know whether it will be harmful. Unless you hone every day, I would not recommend it.

 

[Gamma]

One of my main issues with the Norton combo is that the 4k needed at least 30 minutes to soak and the 8k didn't need a minute. So many people have had that stone split because of the porosity difference. Getting them as separate slabs makes so much more sense to me. I mean, if you need to buy Nortons it does.

I was kind of hoping the last combo I had would split actually; kinda wanted to throw the 4k out and keep the 8k for a mid-range kitchen stone. I can see saturating that 8k for a quick bit, 5 minutes maybe but it always worked without a hitch via splash and go.

I found that soaking the N 8k turned it into a gelatinous mess after a long bath, like spongy rubberyness and there was, objectively, zero enhancement to refinement or feedback. The spongy feel was identical to what happened with a 5k Chosera that took an accidental 45 minute bath.

My experience is with old-school USA stones, not one of the Italy/Mexico or whatever variants. Never bothered getting one of them.
But I might see how an N 8k that is dried out, or a newish overcooked one, might benefit with a bath though. Lapping cures them, but it can mean having to deck 1/8" off the top sometimes.

I would never want to permasoak. Never understood why anyone would want to go that route...seems like a hassle with a potential to cause messy disasters. I remember seeing a video where someone had a 5 gallon pail, full of water and stones, he had to change the water all the time, add bleach to keep it from stinking, and moving it looked like it was a royal pita. I don't have the patience or space for that sort of system.

 

[lightfoot]

One of my main issues with the Norton combo is that the 4k needed at least 30 minutes to soak and the 8k didn't need a minute. So many people have had that stone split because of the porosity difference. Getting them as separate slabs makes so much more sense to me. I mean, if you need to buy Nortons it does.

I was kind of hoping the last combo I had would split actually; kinda wanted to throw the 4k out and keep the 8k for a mid-range kitchen stone. I can see saturating that 8k for a quick bit, 5 minutes maybe but it always worked without a hitch via splash and go.

I found that soaking the N 8k turned it into a gelatinous mess after a long bath, like spongy rubberyness and there was, objectively, zero enhancement to refinement or feedback. The spongy feel was identical to what happened with a 5k Chosera that took an accidental 45 minute bath.

My experience is with old-school USA stones, not one of the Italy/Mexico or whatever variants. Never bothered getting one of them.
But I might see how an N 8k that is dried out, or a newish overcooked one, might benefit with a bath though. Lapping cures them, but it can mean having to deck 1/8" off the top sometimes.

I would never want to permasoak. Never understood why anyone would want to go that route...seems like a hassle with a potential to cause messy disasters. I remember seeing a video where someone had a 5 gallon pail, full of water and stones, he had to change the water all the time, add bleach to keep it from stinking, and moving it looked like it was a royal pita. I don't have the patience or space for that sort of system.

So I’ve been honing with it a couple times a day since it’s been soaking and I’m a bit taken back by the improvement especially on the 4K side. Up until this point I kind of recoiled at the feedback from it although I’ve never really been put off by the 8k side despite it’s limitations.
But when it comes to considering an investment in getting both stones separately the price-point is the biggest drawback for me. They ain’t cheap and there are quite a few strong alternatives at or below what both the 4 & 8k stones cost separately.

 

[Gamma]

Yep, that 4k does work best when fully saturated and they are all hideously annoying and almost pointless when drier. Once it is 'full' - it's ready. Leaving it in the bath doesn't make it more full, it just keeps it wet for the next session so one can avoid the 30-40 minute delay in soak time.
That's how that stone was designed to work. I don't understand why anyone would be surprised to find out a fully soaked stone that is supposed to be fully soaked does better soaked than it does when it's dry. Maybe someone thought a 10 minute soak was all it needed but at 10 minutes that stone is still releasing a good number of bubbles. Mine took on so much water that it would literally 'hiss' while sitting in the tub. After the bubbles stop coming up, it's ready. That's what the people at Norton told me to do when I got it. It takes a while for the stone to saturate fully. Takes a while to dry out too, which is a distraction for me, just like with the King stones.

Cost wise, esp with the 4k that almost dissolves under pressure, I'd rather have 2x the stone for longevity and a reduction in cost per gram. Plus not worrying about the combo splitting is a bonus.
My focus is always on overall value, not initial cost. People like to hold higher prices up as a negative point without taking in the whole story. For me, value transcends initial $$ investment. If the budget does not allow, then that's that though, so balance has to be factored in. Saving and waiting to purchase is always a possibility though. Usually, for me, with an expendable, less $$ per gram/oz is a better financial consideration usually.

I mean, it's a hypothetical consideration because I'd never actually buy them. But If I had to go back to my honing 'square one' I would not get a combo though. Knowing what I know now I might actually jump of the Norton entirely, the learning experience was good but the Nanis were soooo much better.
I burned through 1/2 the 4k side on my first combo in under a week. When I got 3k and 8k Nani SSs I was ready to bury the Norton.

 

[cotedupy]

Yeah I was referring to the super stone series. I’ve never tried soaking one long term.

Yeah... you can do it SS without harming, but it doesn’t make any noticeable difference to use vs a 5 min soak. Whereas other stones (particularly Kings) are markedly improved by it.

I just do it because it’s easier having in the bucket than out for me.

I’m sensing a lot of love for the SS here, which is interesting... I can tell you that the SS 3k is an absolutely awful stone for knife sharpening. It’s too soft, but manages to have zero feedback, and it clogs instantly. Shows how different razor honing is from kitchen knives!

 

[lightfoot]

Yeah... you can do it SS without harming, but it doesn’t make any noticeable difference to use vs a 5 min soak. Whereas other stones (particularly Kings) are markedly improved by it.

I just do it because it’s easier having in the bucket than out for me.

I’m sensing a lot of love for the SS here, which is interesting... I can tell you that the SS 3k is an absolutely awful stone for knife sharpening. It’s too soft, but manages to have zero feedback, and it clogs instantly. Shows how different razor honing is from kitchen knives!

The Naniwa SS series is an odd duck and they’re not without their issues. What you may be picking up on is a comparative favoritism towards the Naniwa brand vs the Norton.
For my own personal use I actually favor the Norton a bit over the Super Stones in the low-mid/Hi-mid range but the offerings from Shapton may surpass both brands in a lot of users eyes especially in the midrange at least.

 

[cotedupy]

The Naniwa SS series is an odd duck and they’re not without their issues. What you may be picking up on is a comparative favoritism towards the Naniwa brand vs the Norton.
For my own personal use I actually favor the Norton a bit over the Super Stones in the low-mid/Hi-mid range but the offerings from Shapton may surpass both brands in a lot of users eyes especially in the midrange at least.

Ah gotcha! I've never tried a Norton water stone, though I have a Washita, old translucent, and a SiC combi which is superb for heavy duty stuff.

Shaptons, both Pro and Glass, get a lot of love on KKF too.