I've tried 0.25 and 0.125 on various coticule stones. I had the best results from the 0.125.
How I use nano-grit compounds & my thought about them
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I haven't tried much with the sprays sprayed on a stone.
I theoretically think that the best results would come from a very fine stone that is also very hard.
Like a high grit Shapton or Spyderco UF.
I know some people I have much respect for have used the UF with 0.25µ diamond with great results.
But I don't own such a stone & alas haven't tried.
I had an interesting conversation with Ken a couple of nights ago about using CBN on high-end J-nats.
Again I don't own one, but sinc ethey are very hard & the slurry on J-nats breaks down & think they are the best natural candidate.
What we talked about more in detail is something I won't reveal yet, because neither I want to bias Y'all
I theoretically think that the best results would come from a very fine stone that is also very hard.
Like a high grit Shapton or Spyderco UF.
I know some people I have much respect for have used the UF with 0.25µ diamond with great results.
But I don't own such a stone & alas haven't tried.
I had an interesting conversation with Ken a couple of nights ago about using CBN on high-end J-nats.
Again I don't own one, but sinc ethey are very hard & the slurry on J-nats breaks down & think they are the best natural candidate.
What we talked about more in detail is something I won't reveal yet, because neither I want to bias Y'all
Oh I forgot: the 0.125 works great on a Yaganoshima Asagi
Honed,
I remember you stating that you dont strop on cotton or linen when using the nanogrits. I just shaved after a cotton/latigo/.025 stropping, and I have a little irritation, although the blade still felt as keen. Do you think the fabric has enough abrasiveness to leave a scratch pattern the .025 can't overcome? Thinking it over, it seems silly that the fabric could harshen up a blade, so maybe my lather was a little light or something. Other than that, the edge off the .025 is pretty nuts. It may be a hallucination, but it feels almost like my Feather AC!! But don't quote me on that
I remember you stating that you dont strop on cotton or linen when using the nanogrits. I just shaved after a cotton/latigo/.025 stropping, and I have a little irritation, although the blade still felt as keen. Do you think the fabric has enough abrasiveness to leave a scratch pattern the .025 can't overcome? Thinking it over, it seems silly that the fabric could harshen up a blade, so maybe my lather was a little light or something. Other than that, the edge off the .025 is pretty nuts. It may be a hallucination, but it feels almost like my Feather AC!! But don't quote me on that
It may be a hallucination, but it feels almost like my Feather AC!! But don't quote me on that
Sorry but I just did!
To be honest, that sounds good to me, I have 0.50/0.25./0.125 CBN coming, it will be interesting to try for sure.
Sorry but I just did!
To be honest, that sounds good to me, I have 0.50/0.25./0.125 CBN coming, it will be interesting to try for sure.
LOL.
I found I got better results with the sprays on balsa vs my super hard felt. I'm thinking the hard felt is just a little too abrasive for my technique.
I never use linen either after 0.125 CBN. haven't tried the finer ones yet.
I never did like felt. Not for razors or knives. I'll try out birch soon.
I never did like felt. Not for razors or knives. I'll try out birch soon.
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- #108
I don't think the linen scratches, but what might happen is that the extreme fineness of the 0.025µ takes a beating from the coarser linen.Honed,
I remember you stating that you dont strop on cotton or linen when using the nanogrits. I just shaved after a cotton/latigo/.025 stropping, and I have a little irritation, although the blade still felt as keen. Do you think the fabric has enough abrasiveness to leave a scratch pattern the .025 can't overcome? Thinking it over, it seems silly that the fabric could harshen up a blade, so maybe my lather was a little light or something. Other than that, the edge off the .025 is pretty nuts. It may be a hallucination, but it feels almost like my Feather AC!! But don't quote me on that
But the reason I don't strop is because it is simply not needed after 0.050µ.
And any stropping actually tames the edge & makes it slightly less sharp.
I do strop lightly on leather only after 0.125µ, but once past that. it's no stropping for me.
I have CrOx, but have never tried this. The Cr2O3 is a pigment, and I never wanted to risk making a mess with it. The Fe2O3 I have is also a pigment. They both work great once applied to balsa. I never worried about staining the stones (though they could take on a green or red hugh), but the things around them.
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- #110
Did some tinkering before tonight's shave.
An E.A Berg got a quick touch-up on very lightly slurried BBW & then a La Grosse Blanche coticule.
Nice, sharp coti edge right there.
Then I rinsed the BBW & left it wet but not dripping & gave it about half a spray of 0.1µ CBN & did 50 very light laps.
A significant difference afterwards. Considerably sharper, but still somewhat of a coticule edge.
Not bad at all. Very interesting!
I know Bart did something similar in the younger days of his coticule explorations where he put CrOx on a BBW to get a good finish.
This was way before the more thorough research on honing on the BBW & all.
I still think a very hard, fine stone is the best "substrate" & maybe a progression of synthetics before to get the most predictable, consistent scratch pattern, but this was a really nice, well-shaving edge.
An E.A Berg got a quick touch-up on very lightly slurried BBW & then a La Grosse Blanche coticule.
Nice, sharp coti edge right there.
Then I rinsed the BBW & left it wet but not dripping & gave it about half a spray of 0.1µ CBN & did 50 very light laps.
A significant difference afterwards. Considerably sharper, but still somewhat of a coticule edge.
Not bad at all. Very interesting!
I know Bart did something similar in the younger days of his coticule explorations where he put CrOx on a BBW to get a good finish.
This was way before the more thorough research on honing on the BBW & all.
I still think a very hard, fine stone is the best "substrate" & maybe a progression of synthetics before to get the most predictable, consistent scratch pattern, but this was a really nice, well-shaving edge.
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"Considerably sharper, but still somewhat of a coticule edge. Not bad at all. Very interesting!
I won't comment quite yet, but I'm certainly interested in getting a few more opinions on this topic first.
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Ken
I won't comment quite yet, but I'm certainly interested in getting a few more opinions on this topic first.
---
Ken
My findings exactly Jens!
Love the purple stained towel BTW
Love the purple stained towel BTW
Iron Oxide (Fe2O3) has a hardness of 5.5-6.5 according to this site. Micro/nano range particles have smaller defects (several specimens with no defects at all) which can increase the hardness of samples considerably. Think micro-crystalline diamond being harder than diamond. I have found that Iron Oxide on Balsa works great to really sharpen an edge. The stuff I am using is the 0.09 micron Iron Oxide from HERE. I can't say how it works on your blades, but on everything I have tried it on, it's a real winner! I have tried shaving straight off the balsa, and it was much too harsh for my tastes, but giving it some passes on the leather really makes it a sharp smooth shaver.
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- #114
Yes, it seemed to really enhance the coticule edge, without taking away the characteristics from the coticule.
Probably because the leap from coti w/ water only to 0.125µ is very large, so what I got was a nicely polished coti-edge, but polished more in "harmony" with the coticule/BBW specific characteristics. Interesting find!
The coticule has the edge above the BBW on most counts, but not in slurry color.My findings exactly Jens!
Love the purple stained towel BTW
I find the BBW deep purple slurry to be absolutely gorgeous!
I had been doing a bunch of Moras & chisels before the razors, so it got rather messy, hence the nice purple stains.
If you manage to make it work, that is absolutely fine by me.
Have you guys compared your finestone+super fine abrasive method to your fine stone then superfine abrasive? It'd save abrasives that way, and might take a few more laps, but it seems like they should be quite similar
What are these "specific characteristics"? How do you know if you have them? If you were to describe the structure that creates that feeling, what would you say was going on.
Interesting explanation. As I mentioned before, I've also gotten good results with the same iron oxide, and the blackening of the paper strop indicates that it is actually removing metal (and quite well at that) and not burnishing.
To quote myself,
Turns out it didn't. It was just good results with an acute angle on a hard steel at 0.1um. I guess that's what I get when I experiment with new razors and new abrasives at the same time.
What are these "specific characteristics"? How do you know if you have them? If you were to describe the structure that creates that feeling, what would you say was going on.
Interesting explanation. As I mentioned before, I've also gotten good results with the same iron oxide, and the blackening of the paper strop indicates that it is actually removing metal (and quite well at that) and not burnishing.
To quote myself,
Turns out it didn't. It was just good results with an acute angle on a hard steel at 0.1um. I guess that's what I get when I experiment with new razors and new abrasives at the same time.
What's the Practical difference between 0.125 micron CBN and 0.125 micron SPD. Does one out perform the other, or does one leave a harsher edge than the other. Has anybody used both? Is synthetic diamond as hard as natural diamond? Inquiring minds? Just wondering which kind to try.
I got my 0.50/.025/.0125 CBN's and balsa yesterday, and used my 8/8 Friodur as the first candidate. I "refreshed" it with 10-15 laps on the Shapton 16k, then followed with 25 laps on the balsa strops with CBN. 50 light laps on leather to finish. Popped hairs on my arm really easily after that.
Now the shave wasn't any earth-shaking event really, just a very sharp yet surprisingly smooth razor. Very promising for a first try.
Now the shave wasn't any earth-shaking event really, just a very sharp yet surprisingly smooth razor. Very promising for a first try.
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I have never used either, so I can't comment directly, but it seems to me that they should be doing the same thing. It seems people like the diamond for it's cutting ability, and the CBN because it leaves a less harsh edge.
Blix, Thanks for the interesting report. Much appreciated (BTW the CBN is 0.125, not 0.0125 - just a typo, not unannounced compound ) The degree of comfort is of particular interest.
Honed / MVH, what you are reporting is exactly what I am seeing. The idea behind it - and my hypothesis to explain it - is that the compound, 0.125 micron or tenth micron CBN, is much finer than the stone's abrasive slurry, so it actually contributes very little to the finish on the steel being abraded by the much coarser natural stone slurry. Rather, the CBN spray enhances the breakdown of the stone slurry in two ways:
1) Breaking down the stone particles in the slurry at a more rapid rate to finer sized particles. The stone is not as hard as the CBN so this should occur. The primary effect is stone breakdown more than CBN abrasion on the metal, so the predominant characteristics of the result of these CBN/Stone slurries has characteristics of the stone much moreso than the CBN. The scratch pattern is more natural stone like.
2) Releasing a greater amount at a faster rate of stone particles. The rate of slurry formation is more rapid, resulting in a denser slurry in a shorter period of time. This denser slurry should enhance abrasion rate too.
3) These very fine particles should not as easily get lodged in the stone itself. This is especially important when using natural stones that have pores or holes for honing. This is of particular relevance to Japanese Natural stones that are 'Suita' layer stones, known for their pores. For this reason, the use of naguras usually of coarser grits than the stone itself is discouraged for suita layer natural stones and why a tomonagura stone would be more appropriate. Hence the bias towards not using suita stones when using Koma, Botan, etc naguras for honing.
4) The CBN does provide abrasion too. I used a piece of slate with minimal abrasiveness. With CBN, it turned the stone into a mildly abrasive stone, breaking down the slate which produces a 'natural stone' scratch pattern, but here the only abrasion present was primarily derived from the CBN, using a coarser CBN for this experiment.
5) Thus the CBN acts as a 'liquid nagura' or more like a 'liquid tomonagura'
I've seen this effect on 30k Shapton Pro stones plus eighth micron CBN, 4k GlassStones plus 4.5 micron CBN. Here, when the slurry from the stone is comparable to the CBN particle size, abrasion rates increase significantly and the effects are more 'mixed'.
On several Japanese natural stones including natural Aoto and several awasedo, the effects I've seen are the same as what Honed and MVH report.
Now it may (speculative) well be that the CBN has greater effect in actually abrading carbides up to and including vanadium and niobium carbides than the stone slurry alone. Too early to do more than speculate on this idea and how this gets into the 'mix'.
This post is long enough to address the iron oxide topic separately, which I'll write up next.
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Ken
) The degree of comfort is of particular interest.Honed / MVH, what you are reporting is exactly what I am seeing. The idea behind it - and my hypothesis to explain it - is that the compound, 0.125 micron or tenth micron CBN, is much finer than the stone's abrasive slurry, so it actually contributes very little to the finish on the steel being abraded by the much coarser natural stone slurry. Rather, the CBN spray enhances the breakdown of the stone slurry in two ways:
1) Breaking down the stone particles in the slurry at a more rapid rate to finer sized particles. The stone is not as hard as the CBN so this should occur. The primary effect is stone breakdown more than CBN abrasion on the metal, so the predominant characteristics of the result of these CBN/Stone slurries has characteristics of the stone much moreso than the CBN. The scratch pattern is more natural stone like.
2) Releasing a greater amount at a faster rate of stone particles. The rate of slurry formation is more rapid, resulting in a denser slurry in a shorter period of time. This denser slurry should enhance abrasion rate too.
3) These very fine particles should not as easily get lodged in the stone itself. This is especially important when using natural stones that have pores or holes for honing. This is of particular relevance to Japanese Natural stones that are 'Suita' layer stones, known for their pores. For this reason, the use of naguras usually of coarser grits than the stone itself is discouraged for suita layer natural stones and why a tomonagura stone would be more appropriate. Hence the bias towards not using suita stones when using Koma, Botan, etc naguras for honing.
4) The CBN does provide abrasion too. I used a piece of slate with minimal abrasiveness. With CBN, it turned the stone into a mildly abrasive stone, breaking down the slate which produces a 'natural stone' scratch pattern, but here the only abrasion present was primarily derived from the CBN, using a coarser CBN for this experiment.
5) Thus the CBN acts as a 'liquid nagura' or more like a 'liquid tomonagura'
I've seen this effect on 30k Shapton Pro stones plus eighth micron CBN, 4k GlassStones plus 4.5 micron CBN. Here, when the slurry from the stone is comparable to the CBN particle size, abrasion rates increase significantly and the effects are more 'mixed'.
On several Japanese natural stones including natural Aoto and several awasedo, the effects I've seen are the same as what Honed and MVH report.
Now it may (speculative) well be that the CBN has greater effect in actually abrading carbides up to and including vanadium and niobium carbides than the stone slurry alone. Too early to do more than speculate on this idea and how this gets into the 'mix'.
This post is long enough to address the iron oxide topic separately, which I'll write up next.
---
Ken
Regarding iron oxides and small iron particles, slurries of fine iron particles made from firescale produced in the forging of blades (swords) has been used by sword polishers for centuries in final stages of polishing (nigui made of a paste of these fine metal particles ground further to make them yet finer). One also sees fine metal particles in the metal swarf produced in the slurry from the metal abraded off of the razor / knife /plane blade, etc.
Does this 'metal' effect the result or is it just an inconsequential side effect?
Well, I recently did an experiment (bear with me on this). I have a knife made of pure Aogami super, a blue Hitachi carbon steel (made by Spyderco). In using natural stones on this knife, I noticed that it abraded quite slowly, which I attributed at first to the tempering process. I used the same stone on a kitchen knife - a single bevelled Japanese knife with an Aogami Super (AS) core steel, BUT CLAD WITH SOFT STEEL. This gave a MUCH faster abrasion rate. What was the difference - the cladding or the tempering?
So I did an experiment. I raised a slurry using the kitchen knife with the softer cladding. Then - using this slurry - I switched over to the solid AS steel knife. The result? Comparable abrasion rates on both knives. My conclusion was that the soft cladding in the slurry CONTRIBUTED to the abrasion process!
Ok, so what does that have to do with iron oxide slurries? Well clearly the iron from the cladding has an effect. The nigui or paste used by sword polishers has an effect. Is it pure abrasion or is there in fact a degree of burnishing action - an action used by sword polishers both with nigui and specifically with burnishing rods to enhance their finish. Now does the CBN in the slurry enhance fine metal removal and add this abraded metal to the slurry as a third relevant component?
These factors are all worth consideration. The fine iron oxide may indeed be producing more of a burnishing than cutting effect but that is still refining the shape of the metal of the edge. At these levels, it may be a partial explanation of the findings of iron oxide's method of effecting the final result.
As we go to strops with either a pure CBN, diamond or iron oxide and as we reach smaller particle sizes than the iron oxide, the swarf produced from CBN and extremely fine mono and poly diamond compounds resembles the iron oxide particles, but may be even finer.
Something to think about.
I'd be interested to know what you (pl) think about my ideas here and if they help conceptualize what we are seeing.
---
Ken
Does this 'metal' effect the result or is it just an inconsequential side effect?
Well, I recently did an experiment (bear with me on this). I have a knife made of pure Aogami super, a blue Hitachi carbon steel (made by Spyderco). In using natural stones on this knife, I noticed that it abraded quite slowly, which I attributed at first to the tempering process. I used the same stone on a kitchen knife - a single bevelled Japanese knife with an Aogami Super (AS) core steel, BUT CLAD WITH SOFT STEEL. This gave a MUCH faster abrasion rate. What was the difference - the cladding or the tempering?
So I did an experiment. I raised a slurry using the kitchen knife with the softer cladding. Then - using this slurry - I switched over to the solid AS steel knife. The result? Comparable abrasion rates on both knives. My conclusion was that the soft cladding in the slurry CONTRIBUTED to the abrasion process!
Ok, so what does that have to do with iron oxide slurries? Well clearly the iron from the cladding has an effect. The nigui or paste used by sword polishers has an effect. Is it pure abrasion or is there in fact a degree of burnishing action - an action used by sword polishers both with nigui and specifically with burnishing rods to enhance their finish. Now does the CBN in the slurry enhance fine metal removal and add this abraded metal to the slurry as a third relevant component?
These factors are all worth consideration. The fine iron oxide may indeed be producing more of a burnishing than cutting effect but that is still refining the shape of the metal of the edge. At these levels, it may be a partial explanation of the findings of iron oxide's method of effecting the final result.
As we go to strops with either a pure CBN, diamond or iron oxide and as we reach smaller particle sizes than the iron oxide, the swarf produced from CBN and extremely fine mono and poly diamond compounds resembles the iron oxide particles, but may be even finer.
Something to think about.
I'd be interested to know what you (pl) think about my ideas here and if they help conceptualize what we are seeing.
---
Ken
