Honing question

[alex1921]

About how old are the Japanese razors?

The ones I have 50's and later. I think it had to do with the honing style of the Japanese barbers. No proof, just a suspicion.
On the other hand I have gotten modern custom razors that were under honed on the toe. You could see the bevel setter scratches but it didn't move beyond that. Needless to say they had to be rezoned because I really use the toe, more than the heel.

 

[SliceOfLife]

By Japanese ones do you mean Kamisori or Western Style Japanese made?

 

[SliceOfLife]

The overhoned/underhoned are related. Poorly ground razors often have the toe off the hone in proper honing. Two options are to focus the toe to keep it sharp (resulting in overworn toe) or not focusing it (resulting in underworn and dull toe). Correcting the problem is a lot more work than either of these. As you've noticed... most people in the past did the first (they wanted to shave with a sharp razor) and most people in modern times tend towards the latter (my guess is inexperience honing/shaving, they often don't even know the problem enough to focus the toe).

 

[alex1921]

Western style.
Yes, if I didn't use magnification I would have missed it last night. I didn't use sharpie as I should have. My undercut wasn't bad but you could see there was something going on. Not terrible but something was off. Put it under the scope and it looked bad, toothy non honed edge. Just the most distal part but it would have been enough to feel it when shaving under my nose where I really utilize the toe of the razor.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Add to the that razors are not perfectly straight. I was honing a Japanese razor last evening and the toe wouldn't hit, even with a rolling x. Had to do a swoop like the Nike logo and that movement fixed it.
So how am I supposed to react to videos I see on YT where people just run the razor up and down the stone. Unless all their razors are perfectly flat you know the edge isn't done toe to heel.
The notion that honing is easy, I personally don't think it is. If it was easy then the forums wouldn't be full of people complaining of crappy edges they get from eBay etc. Dovo would be shipping shave ready razors and so on.
I think the basics are easy but the fine tuning is something you have to figure out. Practice, use a scope or whatever to see hat you are doing and then practice some more.

Keep in mind that what you did to fix it, is what was done that made it that way in the first place. Either that, or letting the shoulder ride on the hone for part of the stroke. But most people who use a rolling X tend to use too much rolling and not enough X. They don't merely adapt to a smile or an upturned toe. They make it more extreme. With a rolling stroke, less is more. The last 1/8" to 1/4" just isn't that important. If it was, all razors would be spike point or at least an extreme French point.

When I have a vintage razor that is mostly straight edged but has an upturned toe that doesn't hit well, I just hone it. Forget about it. In a generation or two, the rest of the edge catches back up with the toe. And you probably won't suffer from bad shaves just cause the toe doesn't shave.

The few razors that I make or mod, DO have edges that are straight from heel to toe. Many commercially produced blades, as well, are straight end to end. Sloppy honers ruin the straightness.

Remember as you hone, that the razor that you hone today might be the razor that frustrates or confuses or irritates someone 100 years from now. Or else it might be the razor that delights a great grandson long after you are gone. You can keep a razor in perfect geometry and alignment, or you can screw it up by honing badly on it for 40 years without a break. And it only takes one bevel setting session to turn a good razor into a disturbed parody of one.

 

[global_dev]

You can keep a razor in perfect geometry and alignment, or you can screw it up by honing badly on it for 40 years without a break. And it only takes one bevel setting session to turn a good razor into a disturbed parody of one.

Definitely... we've all seen things that make us cringe.

I was recently reading a threads about historicals with upturned points, spines that distinctly taper... can't find either now though.

I think it all comes down to what you think of honing and straights, as in where you believe on the art form tool form spectrum it all lays.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Yep... "Pyramid" was a religion over there. Made no damn sense, but it forced people to hone more on lower grit... which solved a lot of their problems, since it seemed like most guys would buy a eBay beater and try to take it to a finisher after a few passes on their Nortons back then.

There's actually been a ton of methods. The problem is none are any better than common sense.

Buy a beveling stone in the ~1k or less range. Buy a finer stone all the way down to your finisher. Hone on them in order of increasing fineness. Lots of guys try and break it down into a number, but that depends on the size of your hones, technology of your hones, grit of your hones, gaps between your hones, grind of your razor, size of your razor, condition of your razor, your pressure; I could go on for DAYS listing variables. Because of that, people just have to learn technique, not method. It's not a lot of technique for a razor... but a method might let you awkwardly stumble to a sharp razor or two. Learning sharpening technique lets you pick up a razor and sharpen it, and know it's sharp. Even methods, used properly contain that same technique requirement within them... knowing when and how much to dilute during the dilucot process for instance. And the solution for not having the technique is the way you learn technique... do everything too much and reduce until there's a problem, continue until you learn the feel of where the transition from not enough to too much occurs.

I'm enjoying this thread and learning from posts such as yours.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[dundak]

This is a razor that had its bevel set and finished on a convex coticule. It has about 150 shaves on it and maintained on leather. It did have 2 refreshes on a Dovo Red loom strop. There are flaws. The corrosion at the point caused some rippling of the bevel but it is fully formed and does not effect the shave. It always gives me near BBS.
I say near because if I press hard with my fingers in certain trouble spots and go against the grain I can feel a hint of whiskers.

I approach honing as an incremental process. I get the razor to produce an acceptable shave then refine it on leather, and occasional use of pastes to refine the edge to its maximum. I find each shave keeps improving as it gets its daily stropping until it reaches an equilibrium. At this point I don’t expect to ever set the bevel again unless the corrosion at the point interferes.




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[alex1921]

And it only takes one bevel setting session to turn a good razor into a disturbed parody of one.

Very true.

 

[Ufgoodies]

No offence but you’ve only been in the honing game since October yourself.

So this provides the perspective for a new honer yes?

I agree at this early stage it's easy to not fully understand what isn't known, simply because of a lack of experience standpoint, but it's nice to hear respectful input from everyone on the spectrum of learning.

This is where things get difficult, there have been many more ungentlemanly conversations as of late. So I want to thank everyone here how maintains their gentlemanly composure, You know who you are!

 

[Twelvefret]

So this provides the perspective for a new honer yes?

I agree at this early stage it's easy to not fully understand what isn't known, simply because of a lack of experience standpoint, but it's nice to hear respectful input from everyone on the spectrum of learning.

This is where things get difficult, there have been many more ungentlemanly conversations as of late. So I want to thank everyone here how maintains their gentlemanly composure, You know who you are!

The ignore member button is your friend

 

[Ufgoodies]

Never had to do this, because of the great crew of people here self regulating (with moderator interference also I assume).

I’ve been coming here for years and it hasn’t been until recently that there has been a strange ungentlemanly vibe where some people seem to seek out confrontation. I just hope that this is a small occurrence as things regulate themselves and balance is found.

If this happens no block would be necessary. I like to thing that this hobby attracts old souls who admire and respect the way of a gentleman

 

[Twelvefret]

Hope you find some balance.

 

[Rotiv]

When your strop just doesn't do it anymore.
No other way to answer it. It varies for everyone.

Yep
But after several months usually


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[Twelvefret]

Decades.

 

[Rotiv]

Decades.

Hi rotation?


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[Twelvefret]

Hi rotation?


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Amazing

 

[Gaznix]

I apologise to those who didn't appreciate my challenge. I felt it was relevant due to the fact that the member has little experience, maybe they’ve honed 100 razors in this shirt time, I don’t know. I just feel certain members post constantly which has little to no relevance.

 

[Twelvefret]

Now I am not relevant….LOL!! No way to win here.

So, I just recommended a GEM PTFE blade for their Micromatic. I am no expert on metals or blades. Should I have contributed? Should I have remained silent?

I usually recommend 3M films because they do work and are an economical way for anyone to get in on using a SR. Is this relevant?

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

I apologise to those who didn't appreciate my challenge. I felt it was relevant due to the fact that the member has little experience, maybe they’ve honed 100 razors in this shirt time, I don’t know. I just feel certain members post constantly which has little to no relevance.

I'm confused and don't know what you're talking about. What does "little to no relevance" mean in this context? As I see it we're just talking about rubbing steel on rocks to get a sharp edge. It's just a bunch of guys having a conversation.

If a member has honed one razor he's gotten one of two results.

• The razor is sharp.
• The razor is not sharp.

As long as the member is open and honest about what's going on - results, methods, razors being used, experience with honing, experience with the stones or pastes or whatever's being discussed, etc. - it seems to me they're contributing to the conversation. Maybe I'm totally wrong about this but I don't think guys asking questions or seeking help or expressing their pleasure in honing or being frustrated by the learning curve of honing are a problem.

Quite the opposite. To me, it's all an opportunity to have fun with the hobby, and to learn from one another, and to occasionally help somebody.

I'm not of the opinion you've done anything wrong, but I am confused and don't know what you mean. What was your challenge?

How often does a blade need to be honed? I was thinking once a year. Newb question.

The OP asked a perfectly reasonable newbie question. It's led to a lot of interesting and helpful conversation. Some of us are newbies who've never sharpened anything. Others are old hands. Most of us are somewhere in the middle.

From a certain point of view it would be great to have a forum where I could read the views of only experts but then I am pretty sure much of what they talked about would be over my head. Here we have a mix and have to muddle through but is seems to work for a lot of gentlemen.

Sorry for being so long winded.

Happy shaves to everyone,

Jim