Honing Problem Razors

[RazorMaven]

As I buy a lot of antique and vintage razors, I am often faced with having to hone "problem" razors - those with uneven hone wear on the spine, smiles, frowns (not too often fortunately), etc. If I try to hone them normally, I can usually get them shave ready, but the mirrored stripe on spine and edge is rough and ugly - as goes the spine, so goes the edge. So I have been working on using a 45 degree angle, where the spine is not touching the hone, which helps with the uneven honing, but concerns me because you are constantly wondering if you are maintaining the correct angle (then of course, you have to remember that you honed that particular razor in that way - just as you have to remember if you taped a razor). I was wondering if anyone out there has discovered a device that will help keep the razor at the proper angle or has an improved technique. Most of the videos I see have people telling you that they are using a 45 degree angle, but not SHOWING you how they do it.

I am always looking for better ways to do the best possible honing job and would be grateful for any ideas or input.

 

[honed]

As I buy a lot of antique and vintage razors, I am often faced with having to hone "problem" razors - those with uneven hone wear on the spine, smiles, frowns (not too often fortunately), etc. If I try to hone them normally, I can usually get them shave ready, but the mirrored stripe on spine and edge is rough and ugly - as goes the spine, so goes the edge. So I have been working on using a 45 degree angle, where the spine is not touching the hone, which helps with the uneven honing, but concerns me because you are constantly wondering if you are maintaining the correct angle (then of course, you have to remember that you honed that particular razor in that way - just as you have to remember if you taped a razor). I was wondering if anyone out there has discovered a device that will help keep the razor at the proper angle or has an improved technique. Most of the videos I see have people telling you that they are using a 45 degree angle, but not SHOWING you how they do it.

I am always looking for better ways to do the best possible honing job and would be grateful for any ideas or input.

Just keep at it & you will eventually discover how the right angle feels in your hands.
It's a matter of practice & experience.

 

[LarryAndro]

The lack of responses, probably is your answer... there isn't any such device! (Or, at least that I have heard mentioned.)

And, in my experience, the "feel in your hands" is the only answer I have to give also. Frequently, with horribly honed razors I do some variation of lifting the spine while honing. I don't always lift the spine OFF the hone, but lift it so it doesn't contact the hone as much. Sometimes, I lift it off slightly.

The feel in your hands is a sixth sense. In addition, the feel on the hone is important to me. (Yes, sure! This is the same thing as "the feel in your hand.") Specifically, when the bevel starts to suck down on the hone (surface tension), that is important feedback as well.

 

[Saunterer]

I have a website bookmarked on my home PC that shows you how to use coins to determine your angles on a hone. When I get home tonight, I'll pass it along. (Wanted to subscribe to this thread...)

Do some searching and you might be able to find it before it get there, but here is some stuff to chew on for the time being.

http://www.chadwrites.com/knife-sharpening-coin-trick-magic-angle-finder/

But I usually just keep the spine on one spot of my thumb and just keep it there and use my thumb as the guide. I've been sharpening knives for about 30 years and can get most decent steels to shave arm hair easily. What I would do is get a cheap knife with decent steel (Victorinox, Buck, Schrade, Case) to practice with, then switch over to your straights. There is virtually no difference in sharpening knives versus straights when it comes to technique.

 

[RazorMaven]

Thanks for all the intelligent, well thought out answers guys. I really appreciate it. The answer to the question very well may be that it is just something you have to practice and ingrain into your brain and hands. The reason that I was asking about some sort of device is that when you are doing razors, the penalty you pay for being off, even on one stroke, can be very, very bad - especially when you are into the 6,000 grit+ area. One bad stroke and you may have to go to jail, go directly to jail, not pass go and not collect $200. Worse, you can run the edge into the stone and be back on the DMT. So I was HOPING that there might have been a device (other than brain and hands) that would provide a bit of additional honing safety that would protect the edge from these flubs.

Thanks again for the great input. I had lately been trying to hone some fat wedges laying them on the spine or a couple of layers of tape. We, you know the story...2 hours and a long wavy shiny line later, it can cut cheese.

 

[Bart]

I'm afraid you have understood the concept "45° angle" all wrong. Personally I don't use that technique, but I am very sure those who do are not lifting the spine. "45° angle" just means that they have the razor lying diagonally on the the hone, instead of perpendicular.

As said, I personally can't figure out any reason why it would offer any advantage, but Lynn Abrams does it and many follow whatever he does.

If you are honing razors with the spine lifted at 45 degree angle, you will end up with a bevel angle of 90° on your razor, as opposed to the normal (+/-) 17°. A 90° bevel is way too obtuse and I seriously doubt it can be sharpened to shave well.

If you want to protect the spine from new hone wear after restoring and polishing a razor, a layer of tape will do just that. As far as the shape of the bevel facets is concerned, there is very little you can do, because how the bevel forms is dictated by the grind of the blade, its lateral straightness (warp) and the curve of the edge (smiling or frowning). Of these 3 variables, the curve is the only thing we can change (short of regrinding the blade, but that's a whole other story).
Luckily, an ugly looking bevel can shave as nice as a pretty one. The best shavers I have encountered, those that seem to take an edge with that final bit of extra magic (everyone who has honed more than 100 razors knows what I'm talking about), are mostly not fancy looking at all.

Concerning wedge style razors, a few months ago, I posted an article on Coticule.be, about the typical challenge of sharpening these.
http://www.coticule.be/wedges.html

Kind regards,
Bart.

 

[Thebigspendur]

Most guys with alot of experience honing knives don't understand honing a razor is totally different until they try and meet with failure.

If you have a worn spine you use tape you don't lift the spine. That's pretty basic razor honing advice. The 45 degree angle thing is mostly for razors with big smiles.

 

[JPDyson]

I'm afraid you have understood the concept "45° angle" all wrong. Personally I don't use that technique, but I am very sure those who do are not lifting the spine. "45° angle" just means that they have the razor lying diagonally on the the hone, instead of perpendicular.

"Heel leading" helped me understand this tactic...

 

[MajorBurnz]

Yeah, as has been said before in this thread the 45 degree angle is the angle the length of the blade makes with the side of the hone. This is useful for blades with smiles (along with a rolling stroke), and also for wedges.

However, the spine is always touching the hone. You must not raise the spine off the hone. In some circumstances, you can use a layer or two of tape to correct any major issues at the edge without wearing out the spine.

My advice is to avoid any razors that have significant wear, or uneven wear. While the can sometimes be reclaimed, they're usually more trouble than they're worth.

Yohann

 

[ouch]

90 degree bevel angle? Wow!

Look at the corner of your desk, then consider if that would be a proper angle for a knife, let alone a razor.

If a blade has a serious frown, I'd think that it would require the removal of so much metal as to render it virtually useless. Unless it was a blade of personal significance, I'd just move on to another, better candidate.

 

[jendeindustries]

What about using stones that are narrow? I find this makes it easier on those seriously warped razors.

 

[RazorMaven]

I'm afraid you have understood the concept "45° angle" all wrong. Personally I don't use that technique, but I am very sure those who do are not lifting the spine. "45° angle" just means that they have the razor lying diagonally on the the hone, instead of perpendicular.

As said, I personally can't figure out any reason why it would offer any advantage, but Lynn Abrams does it and many follow whatever he does.

If you are honing razors with the spine lifted at 45 degree angle, you will end up with a bevel angle of 90° on your razor, as opposed to the normal (+/-) 17°. A 90° bevel is way too obtuse and I seriously doubt it can be sharpened to shave well.

If you want to protect the spine from new hone wear after restoring and polishing a razor, a layer of tape will do just that. As far as the shape of the bevel facets is concerned, there is very little you can do, because how the bevel forms is dictated by the grind of the blade, its lateral straightness (warp) and the curve of the edge (smiling or frowning). Of these 3 variables, the curve is the only thing we can change (short of regrinding the blade, but that's a whole other story).
Luckily, an ugly looking bevel can shave as nice as a pretty one. The best shavers I have encountered, those that seem to take an edge with that final bit of extra magic (everyone who has honed more than 100 razors knows what I'm talking about), are mostly not fancy looking at all.

Concerning wedge style razors, a few months ago, I posted an article on Coticule.be, about the typical challenge of sharpening these.
http://www.coticule.be/wedges.html

Kind regards,
Bart.

I have been experimenting with a number of difficult razors and have found that lifting the spine just slightly off the hone, but higher than tape would provide) seems to dramatically increase honing effectiveness and improves both the look and sharpness of the edge. I am going to try a few out shaving and see what happens. But it seems that taping the spine, while it provides benefits in not further wearing down the spine, does little to produce an edge that either looks or functions better. I could be 100% wrong here and if I am, I'm sure my face will tell me. In either case, I will post the results here.

Thanks for that very thoughtful answer.