Honing Japanese razors (kamisori) with tape

[JeffE]

This is kind of a specific question, but I was wondering if anyone out there is experienced in honing Japanese razors with taped spines.

I have some experience honing these blades generally, and I notice that the wear along the omote face seems to change the bevel angle constantly as the razor is being used. I also have some experience now using tape on the spines of my Western razors, so I'm going to try the same with one or two Japanese razors I have.

Anyway, the question is this -- does anyone have any observations, deep insights, warnings or friendly encouragement when it comes to this type of work? Am I on a fool's errand? Thanks in advance for the responses. --Jeff

 

[mainaman]

IMHO once you put the bevel on the razor it should only see your finisher unless you ding it on the sink or something.
I have honed one with tape and it shaved jut fine, but my majority was honed with no tape regardless of hone wear and they all shaved just fine.

 

[BladeRunner001]

Jeff,
I've got a Solgen (bought it from JimR on SRP) and a Diamond (which I bought NOS)...The Solgen was honed by JimR. I haven't noticed any biases regarding hone wear on the front of the blade compared to the back

I honed the Diamond with tape and have not noted anything strange there either...it looks business as usual...as with western straights.

I would imagine that unless you had a straight "microtome" razor (which, as I understand, are made a lot in japan), where the front and back are different, this front vs. back hone wear may become apparent. but, this is just theoretical prediction as I have no experience with microtome razors

 

[TstebinsB]

I've honed them with tape and I haven't had any problems.

Like Stefan said, once the bevel is properly set you should need higher grits only. The only times I've used tape is when the razor was previously honed improperly and it was going to take a lot of honing to reset the bevel.

 

[mainaman]

Jeff,
I've got a Solgen (bought it from JimR on SRP) and a Diamond (which I bought NOS)...The Solgen was honed by JimR. I haven't noticed any biases regarding hone wear on the front of the blade compared to the back

I honed the Diamond with tape and have not noted anything strange there either...it looks business as usual...as with western straights.

I would imagine that unless you had a straight "microtome" razor (which, as I understand, are made a lot in japan), where the front and back are different, this front vs. back hone wear may become apparent. but, this is just theoretical prediction as I have no experience with microtome razors

he is asking about traditional Japanese razor, they are not like microtome the geometry is different.

 

[Catalin]

Hello Gentlemen, I'm new to razor honing and I just learned about taping the spine to avoid hone wear. What kind of tape do you use? Where can one buy this tape?

 

[mainaman]

Hello Gentlemen, I'm new to razor honing and I just learned about taping the spine to avoid hone wear. What kind of tape do you use? Where can one buy this tape?

3M 7mil electrical, found at Home Depot, Lowe's and your local hardware store.

 

[Catalin]

3M 7mil electrical, found at Home Depot, Lowe's and your local hardware store.

Thanks. I think I have some in my toolbox....

 

[JeffE]

Thanks for the help, brothers. Yes, the tape to use is electrical. (Before I was clued in by someone else, I kept trying other types of tape and man, what a mess!!)

 

[BladeRunner001]

he is asking about traditional Japanese razor, they are not like microtome the geometry is different.

I see...thanks Stefan

I found this thread on SRP, which shows JimR honing a Japanese razor (2 part video) and post #5 very useful too.

The link is here.

 

[Thebigspendur]

I've never used tape on Japanese razors. Among other things I've found if you tape the non writing side because of the symmetry and the need to use pressure while honing the tape simply doesn't last many strokes so it's impractical.

 

[danjared]

I'm not sure if this true for all kamisori, but at least on some, the spine (only the ura side?) is made of softer steel. So, when doing heaving honing (like to remove a chip), the spine will wear more quickly than the edge unless you use tape.

 

[JeffE]

That's true, the jigane steel (the non-blade steel) is sometime so soft that you can wear right through it without even noticing. Then you've got a big flat spot on the omote (non-writing side), and I find that this flat spot actually makes the razor harder and harder to hone, the flatter it gets. It feels like the angle that the edge contacts the hone is changing as the spot gets flatter. That's why I'm trying to use tape for these razors now.

Thanks again for all of the good tips. I will keep you posted. --Jeff

 

[chess1]

it will better not to use tape on Japanese blade.
If Blade has problems try to fix. it takes a lot time and blade will look ugly but will have proper angle and shape.
gl

 

[danjared]

it will better not to use tape on Japanese blade.
If Blade has problems try to fix. it takes a lot time and blade will look ugly but will have proper angle and shape.
gl

In the extreme, yes, but because of the softer steel on the spine, more importantly you want to avoid wearing the spine too quickly and getting a flat ura and ending up with the problem that Jim Rion describes here: http://japanshave.blogspot.com/2010/09/takamitou-kamisori.html

What I'm recommending is fixing the chip, then dulling with a downstroke and resetting the bevel without using tape. The bevel angle change resulting from using tape during the initial phase is not significant (unless you have a really big chip, in which case more extreme compromises always have to be made), but I'll leave doing the geometry as "an exercise for the reader".

 

[onimaru55]

I'm not sure if this true for all kamisori, but at least on some, the spine (only the ura side?) is made of softer steel. So, when doing heaving honing (like to remove a chip), the spine will wear more quickly than the edge unless you use tape.

The "spine " is not easily defined as it is different on both sides but wherever the razor rests on the hone, all the metal is soft iron except at the edge. The thin layer of hard steel is forged to the ura. Cross section pic below. The spine should not wear excessively at the ura when honing as unlike with western razors you apply pressure to the edge with the fingers while honing & it is also the part that is least honed. The ura should always have a small bevel. Most of the honing is done on the omote & that's where you may run into flattening issues.

 

[Kentos]

Ah, pressure at the finger tips...less or none on the "spine"?

 

[danjared]

Yeah, a year ago I said ura when I meant to say omote--my bad. Regardless, if you need to do heavy bevel work, it is very easy to cause premature wear to the omote, but I think we both agree on that. However, according to Iwasaki's successor, each side should be honed nearly the same amount (sort of, see link below), although it should be done differently on each side. Of course, there's more than one way to skin a cat. And, in fact, the ura-side spine should show wear less quickly than the omote-side spine when honing each side the same amount because the ura-side is more hollow. If you don't believe me, hone a near wedge and a half-hollow razor the exact same amount a few times and notice which shows the wear faster.

http://easternsmooth.com/blog/jim-rion/2011/06/07/270-iwasaki-sensei-lessons-learned-part-1

 

[danjared]

By the way, could you link to where that picture is from? I could probably find it easily since I have seen it before, but it's nice to be able to trace the source, and I'm sure the photographer would appreciate due credit.

 

[mainaman]

By the way, could you link to where that picture is from? I could probably find it easily since I have seen it before, but it's nice to be able to trace the source, and I'm sure the photographer would appreciate due credit.

Takeshi from Aframes showed me the same pic a while ago, Iwasaki cut one of his razors for some tests I believe.