Honing issue

[Guitarman59]

Hi all,

I have two straight razors and have been trying to hone them with a 400 and 1000 wet stone, yet they are still completely dull. Would you have any info concerning that? Should I do this for like literally half an hour/an hour for it to be sharp?

Thanks a lot,
Baptiste

 

[rbscebu]

Have you tried to set the bevels using the burr method?

Setting the Bevel with the Burr Method

The Burr Method of honing is perhaps the method of setting a bevel that is most easily understood perfectly. It is the most sure and positive means of setting a bevel, as the method itself is the proof. There is no guessing and very little subjectivity. It is fairly fast, and easy to learn for a...

www.badgerandblade.com

 

[Legion]

Do they pass the tests to indicate that at least the bevels are set?

1k is considered to be a starting point, before you even begin to hone a razor. After that, most of us would go to ~12k or higher.

1000 is knife sharp, but is not razor sharp.

 

[Alum of Potash]

Since this is your first post, welcome to the forum. A 1000 JIS is often used to achieve the initial edge, with finer hones being used to refine it until it's shave-ready. So you at least should be achieving a relatively "sharp" edge (or an edge that grabs the fingernail) with it. What kind of whetstones are they? What razors do you have? What kind of strokes are you using?

 

[JPO]

A 400 should in my opinion be reserved for repair work. After the 1K the razor should as a minimum be shaving arm hair. If you use too much pressure, especially if it is a flexible grind, you might not be hitting the apex. You can basically hone it to a toothpick without getting anywhere. Hone on the 1k until you feel it is smooth on the stone all along the blade. Not all stones give you that nice feedback though. I think you need to add some more details to get better help.

 

[Guitarman59]

Hi all,

Thanks a lot for your time and answers. I don't really know what you mean by bevel?
All I'm doing is what everyone seems to call the X kind of file. I go one way many times then the other. I somehow managed to make it dull while it was not. The brand is Zeva. I have two razors since I told the vendor that the one they sent was loose.
The wet stones are these https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B07YX6Y7KG?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_image

Thanks a lot again,
Baptiste

 

[Alum of Potash]

Thanks for the clarifications. I don't know of the Zeva brand, but a quick search leads me to think that it is made on the cheap, given the very low pricing. That may be the heart of the problem, particularly if the bevel is anything like razors coming from Pakistan. The bevel is the area of the razor that runs closely parallel to the edge and tapers down to create the edge. In theory, it, the edge and the spine (the top part of the razor running parallel to the edge) form a continuous line of contact in honing--or at least that's the goal to be reached in "setting the bevel." If the bevel was set with the spine raised, as is the case with knives, it may be very difficult to reach the edge in honing normally for straight razors (as the straight razor normally consists of a self-contained honing guide of spine, bevel, and edge). In this case, I would recommend using a black Sharpie (or magic marker) to gently mark along the edge and place a layer of electrician's tape on the spine to raise it in a controlled way ever so slightly. Then hone on it as you have been doing until the Sharpie marking is removed all along the edge.

From your strokes as described, it sounds like you may be doing half-strokes (up and down on the stone) with an X-pass (slight movement from heel to toe in passing along the hone's length). IMO, half-strokes are good in seeking the set the bevel (or obtain the edge). Personally, I tend to them a descending count: 5 half-laps on one side, then 5 on the other side, then 3 half-laps on the first side followed by 3 on the other, 2 more in the same way, and then just one, checking the edge by passing it along my thumbnail until it starts to grab. When it grabs, I know I'm getting close to moving on to the next stone. If it doesn't grab, it's repeat as necessary. (Most of this should normally be done with the 1000 stone, the 400 is more for visible chips and reworking of the blade as mentioned in a post above.)

Again, I think marking it with a Sharpie and using one layer of electrician's tape will be your best guide here. In starting out, if the edge is not reached after a few passes honing, it will show you much further it needs to go. The electrician's tape is good because it will protect the spine from being needlessly worn (something that happens to beginners) and also because it will tend to engage the edge more with the stone if your strokes are irregular (another problem in starting out).

Hope this makes sense.

 

[global_dev]

Those stones are unfriendly to use in my experience, i have the same probably just rebranded to see how they worked and it was not a fun experience. Better suited for other sharpening activities.

I would suggest going the film route if you are trying to stay in a budget.

 

[Alum of Potash]

Even if the stones and razor are low-end, they may be useful for learning as there is nothing really to lose and everything to gain from trying and learning from one's mistakes. I'm not inclined to dismiss them and send the OP on another trajectory as he has already invested in these and they can prove useful in the short run along the lines I mentioned with regard to marking the edge with a Sharpie and taping the spine. As the kit appears to come with a Norton-style lapping plate, I would suggest giving the 1000 side a fresh lap before trying again. Perhaps it has already clogged up with swarf from the previous attempt. That too could explain why it seems impossible to arrive at a "sharp" edge.

To lap the stone, soak both it and the lapping plate in water for a few minutes. Then mark out a grid on the stone's surface with a no. 2 pencil. Pass the stone surface on the lapping plate using up and down and side to side motions, turning the stone from end to end at times, and adding water as needed, until the grid pattern is removed. At this point, the honing surface should be refreshed in an elementary sense and ready for use.

Photos of where things stand at this point, razor and stone-wise, would be helpful.

 

[global_dev]

Even if the stones and razor are low-end, they may be useful for learning as there is nothing really to lose and everything to gain from trying and learning from one's mistakes.

While i am inclined to usually agree, i think the level of frustration might turn the OP off, but i wish great luck and experience with the setup.

 

[thp001]

Main issue with low end waterstones is that the PSD is not going to be as tight as a higher end stone. Not a problem on tools and knives but will always give poor results on a razor, even at the higher grit range. Modern straight razor shaving is niche so most stone makers aren't considering how their abrasives will work for honing razors at all really, especially not a company selling such an extensive kit for $30.

For minimal cost, consistent abrasives which work well for razor honing, film is about the best option out there.

 

[steveclarkus]

Hi all,

Thanks a lot for your time and answers. I don't really know what you mean by bevel?
All I'm doing is what everyone seems to call the X kind of file. I go one way many times then the other. I somehow managed to make it dull while it was not. The brand is Zeva. I have two razors since I told the vendor that the one they sent was loose.
The wet stones are these https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B07YX6Y7KG?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_image

Thanks a lot again,
Baptiste

I believe reading the link that @rbscebu posted will answer all your questions.

 

[Guitarman59]

Thank you all very much for your answers. I will try what you all advised me. In fact, it is probably cheap razors but since I am a beginner i believe it's better to mess up on those that on great one.

 

[rbscebu]

@Guitarman59, if your straight razor is a RSO (razor shaped object), no amount of honing is going to make it truly shave-ready. My first SR (before joining B&B) was a RSO.

My first real SR was a good but relatively cheap one from Taiwan of Japanese steel. I think cost me about USD 20 including shipping.

If you need to, you should look at getting one of the better Gold Dollar SR's or a Titan ACRM-2 T.H.60 SR. They are about USD 20 each or less on AliExpress. They are not shave-ready from the factory but they can be reasonably easily honed to that standard with the stones that you have.

 

[Guitarman59]

@Guitarman59, if your straight razor is a RSO (razor shaped object), no amount of honing is going to make it truly shave-ready. My first SR (before joining B&B) was a RSO.

My first real SR was a good but relatively cheap one from Taiwan of Japanese steel. I think cost me about USD 20 including shipping.

If you need to, you should look at getting one of the better Gold Dollar SR's or a Titan ACRM-2 T.H.60 SR. They are about USD 20 each or less on AliExpress. They are not shave-ready from the factory but they can be reasonably easily honed to that standard with the stones that you have.

Thank you for your reply. I think that the razors look good and I would like to sharpen them more. How can I know if they are RSO ?

 

[rbscebu]

Thank you for your reply. I think that the razors look good and I would like to sharpen them more. How can I know if they are RSO ?

Some decent pics would help, one of each side of the blade and one end-on showing the grind.

My RSO was made of austenitic stainless steel and, with a spine thickness of less than 5mm, had a bevel angle of about 11°. Austenitic stainless steel is a no-no for SR as it cannot be heat treated and has a relatively large grain size. The very acute bevel angle in that material also meant the the blade could not hold and edge, even to finish just one WTG pass.

 

[global_dev]

Here is an older convo

What's Up With Those Zeva Solingen Razors?

I was browsing that notorious auction site and kept running across a brand called "Zeva", with Solingen stanps but ZeePK type thick wood scales. Funny thing is, I looked and looked for one sold separately, not part of a set or kit of some kind. There are NONE listed on the bay separately with...

www.badgerandblade.com

 

[bluesman 7]

Thank you for your reply. I think that the razors look good and I would like to sharpen them more. How can I know if they are RSO ?

If you've ever done any knife or tool sharpening, putting an edge on a RSO would be like trying to put a carving edge on a butter knife. The steel is not hard enough to hold a fine apex. I don't know anything about the razor brand that you have, but I have tried to hone a Pakistan damascus razor for a friend that was indeed too soft to take an edge.

Some cheap soft kitchen knives will not hold a 30 degree edge, but do OK at 40 degrees. A razor apex is in the range of 15-20 degrees and requires a hardness that will hold that angle.

As Alum of Potash says, 'there is really nothing to lose at this point by trying', but do realize that you may be trying something that no one could do and a person with experience would realize that quicker than you might.

 

[global_dev]

As Alum of Potash says, 'there is really nothing to lose at this point by trying', but do realize that you may be trying something that no one could do and a person with experience would realize that quicker than you might.

Bluesman said exactly what i was trying to get across.

The immediate difference between these stones and ones more often used for razors is apparent in less than 30 seconds. I say this have used chosera 1k, kuromaku 1500, suehiro 1200, and what appears to be the same type of inexpensive whetstone set.

 

[Herrenberg]

Really good answers here. I have a nightmare vision of Guitarman59 trying to hone a razor that is not a razor, on a stone that is barely a stone. I hope that is not the case. But if it is, imagine the pleasure when he finds out what it's like to work with the real stuff!