Honing disasters!!!!

[Relativo]

Good afternoon everyone!

I live in UK and have been following this forum for a while.

I hope you don't mind but I just wanted to share my experiences of honing so far as a newbie.

I wanted to start shaving with a straight last August 2008.

It took a while to get a shave-ready razor but I started off with a honed TI 6/8 from ClassicS. It shaves quite nicely.

I have other razors which I have attempted to hone myself but have had no luck so far. Most of these werer purchased non-shave-ready.

Honing setup:
Norton 4/8k
DMTC for lapping
Chinese 12K

Stropping technique appears to be efficacious as I strop at least 50 before each shave with the TI with no adverse effects to the edge.

1. Dovo Bismark. Started off trying to set the bevel with the 4K. Couldn't get it to easily pop arm hair but was worried about over-honing. There was ALOT of metal coming off the blade so sure'y the blade must have been ready to move up? Moved up anyway to 8K and then 12k. Had to use a rolling X pattern because the toe and heel were not perfectly flat on the hone.

Not sure if my technique is creating an uneven edge because all the blades I try and hone end up with more spine wear towards the heel end of the spine compared with the toe end of the spine.

2. Dovo tortoise 5/8. Out of the box it wouldn't shave at all. Tried the same thing as above but no rolling X stroke. Mostly up and down. Again, toe and heel no touching. Getting alot of metal coming off but the edge is still not getting sharp and feels rough in some parts but smooth and blunt in other parts with the TPT.

3. Dovo SS Micarta that came pre-honed but stopped shaving. Pulling and not cutting at all. Decided to take it back to the 4K Norton. All that seemed to happen was that I removed ALOT of metal without the blade getting sharp again. This was with a light balanced X-pattern stroke. Took it up the 12K where is shaves wet armhair but haven't done the shave test yet cos I don't want to think I've messed up ANOTHER razor.

4. 7/8th Henckels Friodur, arrived not shave-ready. Didn't shave at all. Took it to the 12K first and did about 200 laps. Tried shaving with it after 100 laps on the strop. Nothing. Didn't want to take it to the Norton because I don't want to ruin this razor on the Norton like I have all my others I've attempted!!!!

I really don't like the Norton- it removes metal and becomes dished very quickly. I'm having to lap it during honing.

I've got the following things on order:

DMT 8" plates C through to EE
Belgian starter kit (6 x 2" blue and yellow with slurry) a cheap kit to give them a try.

A basic, new, bottom end Solingen razor to practice on from now on.

Please could anyone help advise?

This honing is MUCH more difficult than I thought. I want to be self-sufficient with my sharpening but don't want to mess up all my razors!!!

If I've put uneven spine wear on some of these blades is it easy to correct?

Argh!

I'm trying to be sympathetic to the steel and not hone it to oblivion but just not sure if I've been working with the wrong tool (the Norton) for setting bevels on new razors?

I seem to spend a LONG time and not get any sharpness. I just end up with metal removal!!!

Any advice appreciated.

Matt

 

[Hanzo]

I'm a honing newb as well. I think the crucial part that newbs don't get is SETTING THE BEVEL. I think if we don't set that initial bevel correctly we can hone for hours without results.Lynn Abrams stated its possible to set a bevel with your Norton 4k side.

I don't think you should buy new honing equipment but learn to use what you have . Except for the DMT, I have the same setup and I have been able to touch up my blades but not hone a dull blade. Sending the blades out to a honemeister revealed to me that not being able to fiqure out how to set the bevel was the first problem.

I think those with more knowledge can help you. Keep at it.

 

[shotwell1234]

If the hone is dishing during a single honing session, I would speculate that you are putting far too much downward pressure on the razor. The razor should 'float' on the hone. Honestly, any downward pressure except the weight of the razor is too much.

Silly question, but you are soaking the Norton first?

 

[GsSixgun]

There are several clues buried in here that I am going to point out to you, don't take offense....


First and foremost for all new honers, buy some electrical tape it serves two functions, one it eases up on the destruction to the spine, two it moves the honing torque to the edge... Or you can just not take that advice and add 20 -50 years of bad wear to the spine of the razor...

Sharpen one razor, not 5 just take the closest one to shave sharp and start there...

Take the freshly lapped 4k Norton and start there,, you said you have a dmt use it and raise a slurry (Wow what a concept slurry on a synthetic) Put the razor on the hone flat use medium pressure and do 20 counterclockwise circles down the hone flip the razor and do 20 clockwise circles back up the hone , make sure the whole blade is on the hone use a heel forward angle to the razor....
Rinse the stone using light pressure do 20 circles down the hone do 20 back the other way...
Rinse the stone do 20 perfect X strokes...

Stop and test the edge using either your arm hair or the TPT or both...

Lynn came up with this system I call it "40 circles to sharp" if this doesn't get you to cutting arm hair or a sticky TPT there is a serious problem with your technique. This system eliminates most Newb problems...

Once the razor is cutting arm hair or is sticky sharp from toe to heel then and only then go to the 8k and do 20 perfect X strokes

Rinse the stone and do very very slow very very light X strokes as the N8K goes to dry (about 10-20) ... Strop and test shave...

There is no sense in buying or using more stones if you can't get a razor shaving on the Norton 4/8 honest...

Good Luck


ps: after the 40 circles you could also switch to a standard Pyramid honing system...

 

[Relativo]

Thank you to you all for your excellent advice!!!!

 

[mainaman]

One point on setting a bevel.
It will take very very long time if at all possible to set bevel on a 4k stone.
You need 1k stone (in some cases even lower).

 

[CraigJ]

I really dig that 40 circles bit. I have used circles before but not quite that methodicly. That goes to show me that there is always something new to learn. I would think this method is nearly foolproof because the blade is always flat on the stone and very little flipping the blade over.

 

[AFDavis11]

Very good advice from Glen. What I find is that most guys have a crappy stroke and fail to accept it, no matter how often it gets posted, told to them, or banged into their head. Without knowing what a good stroke is and being able to replicate it repeatedly you can hone for decades and not get anywhere. I would almost say that two, maybe three, non-coincident strokes and you've failed.

 

[Relativo]

Thanks again. Yes, I soak the stone as prescribed and lap it before use.

I do TRY not to use too much pressure but there is obviously something wrong with my technique and/or the 4K is too fine to set the bevel as suggested?

Need to practice on a cheaper razor.

 

[SavantStrike]

Thanks again. Yes, I soak the stone as prescribed and lap it before use.

I do TRY not to use too much pressure but there is obviously something wrong with my technique and/or the 4K is too fine to set the bevel as suggested?

Need to practice on a cheaper razor.

If you were using enough pressure to dish a Norton, be glad you were setting the bevel on it and not a 1200 grit DMT.... There wouldn't be much razor left . But all prodding aside, honing is one of those things that can just take time to master. Don't give up hope, you'll get it in time.

I have only been honing for 6 months now, and I am by no means an expert, but I do think I'm good enough now to be qualified to at least give you some guidance. Especially since you're using the same set of stones I learned on (Norton 4k/8k and C12k) .

I actually set my bevels with a DMT D8E, so I can't tell you for certain if you can set the bevel on an Ebay special with a Norton (and I don't have the patience to find out), but my gut answer would be yes, it's possible. You can most definitely set a bevel on an edge that is really tired but is in otherwise good shape (no chips, etc), but the more tired it is, the longer it will take. Even still it shouldn't take too long (just not the quick 10 passes or so it would take on a 1200 grit stone).


With that D8E you ordered, you should be set.

 

[cityjim]

Honing is not a hard task . It shouldn't take you more than say 10-20 minutes total . Cutting a new bevel say 20 minutes . Polishing the edge say 10 minutes . Use the right tool for the job . Lets talk about the tools .

Samurai swords use the best steel on the planet . Look at what Japanese craftsman use to sharpen with . Nothing but "natural" stones . In America we also have natural stones . They are the tried and true Arkansas variety . What was it WW I , where doctors used the Arkansas hard black for sharpening surgical instruments ? Why , because this stone gave the best edge . Arkansas stones have a proven track record of over 100 years . Why because they work .....

Tools you will need for all around straight usage :

1. Arkansas soft or Spyderco ceramic medium (600 ANSI American grit - medium ) - used to cut bevels on Fleabay or really abused razors . $15.95 for the Arkansas soft .

2. Arkansas hard white . (1000 ANSI - fine) This stage begins the edge polishing . You can shave off this stone with ease . $16.95

3. Here is the UF stage . You could use either the Spyderco ceramic 302UF at 2000 ANSI grit and around $55.00 or Arkansas hard surgical black at $49.95 .

4. Finally the UF+ stage . Here is the infamous Arkansas translucent at $59.95 . This stage could be deleted and would save money . But man what an edge .


I buy all my Arkansas stones from KME Shapreners . They come from Dan's whetstones directly out of the Arkansas mines . http://www.kmesharp.com/Accessories.html

You can shave off of #2 above and definitely #3 . I stop at the 3 level so as not to over sharpen/polish the edge . This keeps the edge tougher and last a lot longer on tougher beards .

So there are your tools and where to buy . Notice I didn't recommend DMT ? All due to their abrasive type and our device we are sharpening . DMT hones leave huge scratch marks in the bevel and most importantly the edge . Look for yourself with a pocket microscope . This is NOT what we want for straight razors . You DMT users that are having problems this is why . DMT stones are great for pocket knives , kitchen knives , camping axes , lawn mower blades and so on . These applications require scratch marks to assist in the cutting action . Again not for shaving . We want smooth which is what the natural stones and ceramics provide .


Now for technique . OP states he is cupping stones . Which tells me he is using WAY TOOOO MUCH PRESSURE and or drastically overhoning . All you need is the weight of the razor plus enough downforce to hold the razor flat on the stone . Basically the weight of the razor only and let the STONE do all the cutting/polishing . There is no need to push down at all . All you are doing is distorting the blade and edge . Which messes up the bevel angle and gives a crap shave . Most full hollow blades are 0.010" thick or less . The actual cutting edge itself is at the micrometer level . Really small and DELICATE . No pressure needed .

You need to feel and listen while you hone . You will hear a gravel road sound then it will start to smooth out . The latter is when you stop honing when it turns smooth . Do 2 or 3 strokes per side and turn over listening while you hone . Eventually you will notice what I am talking about . Then progress to the next higher grit stone . The 600 grit medium should and does cut arm hair . Remember in honing - less is more .


Stropping is the same . There is no need to press the razor's edge into the leather . Just gently drag it on the leather . There is no speed racer game either . Many guys feel they need to speed strop and cut their strop all to pieces . Remember to protect the delicate edge . Nice and slow and consistency is what counts .


cityjim

 

[Relativo]

Hi there!

Thanks to you all for the excellent advice and comments!!!

I was trying to use just the weight of the blade and enough pressure to keep it in contact with the Norton, it was dishing only a tiny amount but enough to make me want to re-lap it.

I'm sooooooo confused with all the different stone options!!!!

I currently not have:

DMTs C thru to EF

Belgian blue and coticule

Norton 4/8

Chinese 12K

I like the challenge of learning to hone and don't mind the effort.

I'm more drawn to the traditional and natural stones only because I'm old fashioned.

What about an Arkansas low grit 1000 for the bevel, followed by BBW, coticule then C12?

Would this be a good setup?

I don't have alot of experience but so far I've not enjoyed the fedback from the DMTs.

I love the coticule though!!

 

[SavantStrike]

I guess you could go that route, but you might want something that cuts a bit faster than an Arkansas. There are half a dozen synthetics on the market that could fit that bill.

Why don't you like the feedback from the DMT stones? Is it that grity, grinding a razor across pavement feeling? That never completely goes away, but the general consensus is that DMT's get much less gritty feeling over time. You can expedite this process by taking a piece of hardened steel and running it across the stone a bunch of times.

 

[cityjim]

Hi there!

Thanks to you all for the excellent advice and comments!!!

I was trying to use just the weight of the blade and enough pressure to keep it in contact with the Norton, it was dishing only a tiny amount but enough to make me want to re-lap it.

I'm sooooooo confused with all the different stone options!!!!

I currently not have:

DMTs C thru to EF

Belgian blue and coticule

Norton 4/8

Chinese 12K

I like the challenge of learning to hone and don't mind the effort.

I'm more drawn to the traditional and natural stones only because I'm old fashioned.

What about an Arkansas low grit 1000 for the bevel, followed by BBW, coticule then C12?

Would this be a good setup?

I don't have alot of experience but so far I've not enjoyed the fedback from the DMTs.

I love the coticule though!!

I would stick to one stone type/brand if you could . Due to different manufacturing types and techniques , bonding agents and so on . And the many different "grit" ratings or scales out there . There are 5 that I know of off the top of my head . Most precise would be the grit micron rating I would guess . Grits differ WIDELY on American stones to Japanese for example and so on and so on ...... This way you would go from an established grit "characteristic" to the next higher grit stone . See what I mean ? The entire Arkansas line can be had for around $150.00 . This will do everything you will ever need .

Another good thing about Arkansas stones is the actual "grit" is the same size in all the stones . Something like 3 microns in size . The higher grit stones are denser stones , which packs the grit tighter . This could be one factor they work so well . Also I've never heard anyone say Arkansas stones were junk . If so they were using them incorrectly . Or they are not the flavor of the week to say .


The Belgian , Norton and C12k are goods stones no doubt .

Just remember you can't jump from one stone brand/type to another and expect to get a higher or lower grit . Don't get fooled on the grit rating . Again there are several scales that grits are measured on . For example a 1500 ANSI (American) grit stone is equivalent to a 4000 grit Japanese waterstone . The above stones come in at 3 microns . Here is one chart below .

http://users.ameritech.net/knives/grits.htm

cityjim

 

[cityjim]

I guess you could go that route, but you might want something that cuts a bit faster than an Arkansas. There are half a dozen synthetics on the market that could fit that bill.

Why don't you like the feedback from the DMT stones? Is it that grity, grinding a razor across pavement feeling? That never completely goes away, but the general consensus is that DMT's get much less gritty feeling over time. You can expedite this process by taking a piece of hardened steel and running it across the stone a bunch of times.

SavantStrike ,

you got me there . Cuts faster ? Cutting a tiny bevel or polishing a 1 micron edge ? Why would you need something faster ?

BTW , an Arkansas soft at 600 ANSI cuts pretty fast . I can cut a fresh new Ebay bevel in all of 2-3 minutes . Then polish the edge up in less than 10 tops . Sounds like you are a busy man .


I don't like DMT "for straight razors only" due to the abrasive type (ultra hard synthetic diamonds) and aggressiveness . Sure they will mow the lawn in a hurry . But look at the scratch pattern when you are finished mowing . When one progresses up the chain to higher grit stones , they are looking to remove scratches and basically polish the edge . Something the DMT stones leave like wild fire . Look at one for yourself with a pocket microscope . Then use an Arkansas and see the huge difference .

I'm not here ranting that Arkansas stones are the best . I just know they work and have been around for over 100 years for a reason .


cityjim

 

[pcb01]

Get the Belgian hones and follow Bart's Unicot method to the letter. It will work on any razor without major edge damage and/or twisted spines, frowns, etc. Actually, edge damage can be repaired with a heavy slurry, and most irregularities can be compensated for with a narrow Belgian stone, but to start, try the method with an undamaged blade with reasonably straight geometry and a standard 6" X 2" coticule.

I struggled with honing until I did this.

 

[cityjim]

Get the Belgian hones and follow Bart's Unicot method to the letter. It will work on any razor without major edge damage and/or twisted spines, frowns, etc. Actually, edge damage can be repaired with a heavy slurry, and most irregularities can be compensated for with a narrow Belgian stone, but to start, try the method with an undamaged blade with reasonably straight geometry and a standard 6" X 2" coticule.

I struggled with honing until I did this.

I wouldn't use a narrow stone unless that was the only stone I had . I have several really thin blades that flex if you breathe on them . You can watch the blade flex as you gently attempt to keep the blade flat while honing on a narrow one . Like going off the stone and progressing on it .

For narrow stones that are not wider than the blade , I turn the stone 90* and do circles . This way the blade has 100% continuous contact with the stone . Also keeps the bevel angle constant by keeping the edge in contact with the stone . Lots of stress on the blade when the steel goes up on the stone .

cityjim

 

[gugi]

Lots of stress on the blade when the steel goes up on the stone .

Really? I wouldn't have thought of it based on how my very flexible razors shave after the narrow hones...

 

[rupert87]

Relativo, it definitely sounds like you're applying too much pressure to the blade.

If the above info doesn't help, try a honing pyramid - you may not need to set a bevel if the razor is relatively new and undamaged:

1/5
3/5
5/5
3/5
3/5
1/5
1/5
1/5
1/10

4000grit/8000grit on the Norton stone.

Then strop. You should be able to have a very comfortable shave from a Norton 8k finish. Only once you're at that stage should you consider finishing on pastes or your 12k hone, which is really just a luxury

Don't bother getting a poor quality practice razor - nobody will manage to get a decent edge on one.

For info, I've also got a slightly warped Dovo which I've given up on. I guess you could sharpen it with an X-pattern, but life's too short and it sounds like you have a few other nice blades.

If you're still having problems, I'd be happy to get one of your blades shave-sharp for you.