I tried honing my razor yesterday. I spent about 100-125 strokes on my 800 stone to set the bevel, and then spent some significant time on my 4000 stone. I can get it sharp, but it seems like it is most sharp at he ends and not quite as sharp in the middle. I am frustrated that while it takes hair off my arm when I shave it just doesn't cut like I would like. I really have to go over the area a number of times to cut the hair and on the thickest areas like my chin it wont take it all the way down. Now, I'm very new to straight razor, and I've never used a professionally honed razor, but when comparing it to my safety razor that I run astra's on which with minimal pressure I could easily be satisfied with my shave after one pass, and with which I don't even feel the hairs being cut. Unfortunately right now I only have the 800/4000 stone. Do you think I just need a higher grit stone, like a 6000 or 8000? I forgot to mention that I also finish by stropping on a newspaper for a while on top of my stone. I also don't yet have my leather strop which I will be getting this week. Any thoughts would be helpful, thanks!
Honing difficulties
- Thread starter jbells
- Start date
4000 is a bit low but it might work. I think that finishing on a 8k is a minimum and I prefer a 12k-16k finish. Keep in mind that if the grit between stones is too high, you will end up spending more time on each stone. If you have a microscope or loupe to look at the edge, that can be good.
If you don't hone the middle of the blade the same way than the edges it probably mean that your edge is warped.
If you don't hone the middle of the blade the same way than the edges it probably mean that your edge is warped.
Does the edge pass the TNT off the 4K? If not, the bevel isn't set.
If the ends of the razor are sharp but the middle is not, then the first thing I would do is I would make sure that you're stones are lapped dead-flat. If so, then it could mean that you have a slight warp on the blade. For this, I usually do a rolling x-stroke on one side & add pressure with my finger on the middle of the blade on the other side. I've had good luck with this technique...
If the shave is too harsh off of the 4k and you're sure that the bevel is set, then you might want to pick up something like an 8k stone to finish on...Or you could take it one step further and get a 12k as well....But you gotta be sure that that bevel is set...your efforts will be all for naught otherwise....
If the shave is too harsh off of the 4k and you're sure that the bevel is set, then you might want to pick up something like an 8k stone to finish on...Or you could take it one step further and get a 12k as well....But you gotta be sure that that bevel is set...your efforts will be all for naught otherwise....
Any time I'm having issues in one part of the blade I pull out the sharpie. Paint the edge on both sides the whole length of the razor and take a few strokes on your hone. If there's areas where the marker remains on the edge you're not getting good contact with the hone there and you need to address that.
Other remarks about the uneven edge seem good. This seems to be the underlying problem for now. In any case, shaving off 4k is pretty harsh. I'd pick up an 8k or a coticule, and possibly a strop lined with ferric oxide, to help with those pesky chin hairs.
IMO the best rule to remember is the razor must be sharp from bevel set. Moving on to a higher grit in hopes that it will get better is a recipe for unhappy shaves.
PIctures of the razor along a flat surface would help everyone diagnose the issue. I'm going to assume that your stones are flat enough to hone on.
+1 for the marker test. Make sure your stones are lapped flat too. If you didn't lap them (or have them lapped by whoever you bought them from), chances are that they're not perfectly flat enough for honing. That can cause some complications as well. Shaving right off of 4k can be done, but the edge is likely to feel pretty harsh. A finishing stone, as has been recommended above, would be ideal. Something in the 8k+ range. I tend to like my razors off of 12k.
Comparing a straight razor blade to a safety razor blade is apples and oranges. A safety razor blade will always be sharper than a straight razor blade (in most cases). You're looking at honing into some very high grits (think 20k+) before you're getting close to a safety razor blade. That level of honing is an art form unto itself.
I would recommend picking up a shave ready razor honed by a pro at this stage. With that, you'll know what a shave ready edge really is and you'll have a basis on which to compare your own honing efforts. whippeddog.com has shave ready razors available for reasonable prices.
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
What they said. Bu t I will re iterate
Your bevel is probably not set in the middle. Do the sharpie test. If inconclusive, then do half laps, one side only, about 50 with light to moderate pressure. Now feel the edge ON THE UNHONED SIDE. You should feel a tiny catch or hook. This is called a burr. You will probably feel it at the heel and toe right away, after a dozen or two dozen half laps. You need to be able to detect it along the entire length of the blade, even if it is just barely there in spots. As long as it IS there. When you have a full length burr, hone that side, the same number of laps as the other side, and feel for the burr on the side you honed first. It should be there. Now, simply hone the burr away with very light alternating laps. Your bevel is set now, and no doubt or argument about it. Do it ONCE, do it RIGHT, and NEVER do this AGAIN, at least on this razor.
Oh, did I forget to mention, you need to lap your bevel setter first? Silly me!
To best lap your stone, get some Loctite or 3M spray adhesive from Hone Depot. And some sandpaper. 300 or 320 grit wet/dry is great. You could even go 220 grit, on the 800 stone. Lightly spray the back of a whole sheet of sandpaper, and carefully glue it tight and flat to a 12x12 polished marble (not ceramic!) floor tile, also from Hone Depot, about $5. Draw a fine grid on your stone. When the glue has set and you know the sandpaper won't move, and is stuck good, nice and flat, with absolutely no bubbles or lint or hair or other debris under it, start working your stone back and forth, corner to corner, on the sandpaper. You will see that the grid is sanded away from parts of the stone right away, but not from others. That is proof that your stone was not flat. Keep lapping until every bit of the grid is gone. If you like, you can repeat the process with 600 grit paper.
4k is pretty rough for finishing. No, stropping on newspaper is not finishing. You really should get yourself an 8k stone. Or get some 3u and 1u lapping film. http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/283576-Lapping-film-try-it?highlight=lapping+film+try+it. CAN you shave off a 4k? Yes, you can if you want to! But you really don't want to! If you insist, then I will tell you later how to best do this.
Don't strop on newspaper laid on top of your stone. First of all, is your stone flat? Second, it isn't long enough for effective stropping. Third, you should strop on a hanging strop pre-shave. Take a whole sheet of newspaper and fold it longways into a strip 2-3/4" to 3" wide. Pass an end over a towel rod and pinch both ends together. Pull tight and strop. Nearly as good as leather. The way you are doing it is not going to work well at all.
You could get some balsa, 3" x 12" and apply diamond paste to it. For right off the 4k, you want 3u diamond. Otherwise, you can start with 1u off an 8k stone. Off a 12k stone go to .5u and then .1u diamond. separate balsa for each grit. Strop on that. The coarsest one until it has definitely improved the edge but cannot improve it more. The finish grit, about 4 dozen laps. Your edge should be sharp now. Strop on the hanging leather or newspaper strop, and shave.
You can't expect good results if you don't do it right. There are a lot of right ways, actually, but a lot of wrong ways, too, and you have invented a new one, I think. Or actually, recombined elements of several other wrong ways. Don't worry. You can do this. But attend to all the details. Pure effort and want-to isn't enough.
Your bevel is probably not set in the middle. Do the sharpie test. If inconclusive, then do half laps, one side only, about 50 with light to moderate pressure. Now feel the edge ON THE UNHONED SIDE. You should feel a tiny catch or hook. This is called a burr. You will probably feel it at the heel and toe right away, after a dozen or two dozen half laps. You need to be able to detect it along the entire length of the blade, even if it is just barely there in spots. As long as it IS there. When you have a full length burr, hone that side, the same number of laps as the other side, and feel for the burr on the side you honed first. It should be there. Now, simply hone the burr away with very light alternating laps. Your bevel is set now, and no doubt or argument about it. Do it ONCE, do it RIGHT, and NEVER do this AGAIN, at least on this razor.
Oh, did I forget to mention, you need to lap your bevel setter first? Silly me!
To best lap your stone, get some Loctite or 3M spray adhesive from Hone Depot. And some sandpaper. 300 or 320 grit wet/dry is great. You could even go 220 grit, on the 800 stone. Lightly spray the back of a whole sheet of sandpaper, and carefully glue it tight and flat to a 12x12 polished marble (not ceramic!) floor tile, also from Hone Depot, about $5. Draw a fine grid on your stone. When the glue has set and you know the sandpaper won't move, and is stuck good, nice and flat, with absolutely no bubbles or lint or hair or other debris under it, start working your stone back and forth, corner to corner, on the sandpaper. You will see that the grid is sanded away from parts of the stone right away, but not from others. That is proof that your stone was not flat. Keep lapping until every bit of the grid is gone. If you like, you can repeat the process with 600 grit paper.
4k is pretty rough for finishing. No, stropping on newspaper is not finishing. You really should get yourself an 8k stone. Or get some 3u and 1u lapping film. http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/283576-Lapping-film-try-it?highlight=lapping+film+try+it. CAN you shave off a 4k? Yes, you can if you want to! But you really don't want to! If you insist, then I will tell you later how to best do this.
Don't strop on newspaper laid on top of your stone. First of all, is your stone flat? Second, it isn't long enough for effective stropping. Third, you should strop on a hanging strop pre-shave. Take a whole sheet of newspaper and fold it longways into a strip 2-3/4" to 3" wide. Pass an end over a towel rod and pinch both ends together. Pull tight and strop. Nearly as good as leather. The way you are doing it is not going to work well at all.
You could get some balsa, 3" x 12" and apply diamond paste to it. For right off the 4k, you want 3u diamond. Otherwise, you can start with 1u off an 8k stone. Off a 12k stone go to .5u and then .1u diamond. separate balsa for each grit. Strop on that. The coarsest one until it has definitely improved the edge but cannot improve it more. The finish grit, about 4 dozen laps. Your edge should be sharp now. Strop on the hanging leather or newspaper strop, and shave.
You can't expect good results if you don't do it right. There are a lot of right ways, actually, but a lot of wrong ways, too, and you have invented a new one, I think. Or actually, recombined elements of several other wrong ways. Don't worry. You can do this. But attend to all the details. Pure effort and want-to isn't enough.
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Bevel not set. Very common problem with new honers. It can be seen under low magnification, you've either got two planes or one plane and a rounded edge.
I bought myself a microscope today as for a beginner like myself there is no better nor conclusive way of setting a bevel than seeing it for yourself! Here is a good example of what to aim for
Hope this helps.
Hope this helps.
- Thread starter
- #13
Thank you all for your advice. I think that I have two problems as you all have mentioned above, my honing stone is not flat and the bevel is not set. I'm planning to go to HD for the marble tile, and the sandpaper. I will start there and use marker grid to makesure it is flat, then I will follow your advise and make sure the bevel is set before I move on to the 4000 grit. I'm looking into lapping film to move onto there, unless I can find a good cheap 8000+ stone. Thanks again! I'll keep you updated.
There is a great 8-10k dragons tongue stone on ebay. Highly recommend it as I have one myself. Also its only £15 + p&p
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NATURAL-S...pt=UK_Kitchen_Accessories&hash=item27d51c5d40
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NATURAL-S...pt=UK_Kitchen_Accessories&hash=item27d51c5d40
Lapping film is certainly cheaper than stones for sure. Since you've already got a 800 grit stone, a set of 5, 3 and 1 micron films will take you all the way through to completion. It wouldn't be a bad idea to pick up some 12 micron film (equivalent to around ~1200 grit) to fine tune your bevel before you move on to the other films. That's optional though. If you can get a good bevel set on 800 grit, then drive on. You can also use your marble tile as a substrate for films. Films pretty much guarantee a flat honing surface without lapping as long as your substrate is flat.
I bought myself a microscope today as for a beginner like myself there is no better nor conclusive way of setting a bevel than seeing it for yourself! Here is a good example of what to aim for
Hope this helps.
KFD, Try and get a little more magnification on that and look at the areas I marked.
Can't tell a set bevel from a photo, but you can tell when it isn't set from a photo.
TNT works well.
TNT works well.
Slash have you posted pics of a burr magnified before? If not do you have the capability to do so for everyone?
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
Well, let's just say that a microscope is on my list of things to get, eventually! Actually I would be interested in a micro pic of a raised burr. If I had a microscope I would take the pic and post it, for sure. But I do know what it feels like, and that's what I go by. Somebody will jump in on this, for sure. These guys with their USB microscopes... they are worse than Memaw with her 8mm home movies! LOL! You know one of them will post a burr pic before the day is over.
