Honing Certification?

[gugi]

have any of you gotten a shave-ready razor from a reputable honemeister and it just didn't cut it?

I have not, all razors honed for me by reputable guys have been nice.

There was one exception of a razor having left over microchipping, but I bought it from somebody who said they've only used it twice. So I cannot be certain it wasn't a problem with the seller, but the honing looked more like a sloppy job by somebody who ought to know better, than an attempt by a newbie.

 

[TstebinsB]

have any of you gotten a shave-ready razor from a reputable honemeister and it just didn't cut it? (whether it be tough beard that required a sharper blade or some other reason)???

just curious - no names of the honemeisters, please....I'm not looking to "out" anybody...just wondering if sometimes their services fall short of what's expected?

I believe somebody at some point clarified that "shave ready" simply means that the blade is sharp enough for someone somewhere to shave with it - but I suppose that means that the blade could be sharp enough for someone with thin wispy facial hair that only needs to shave every 3 days or more to shave with...but I guess that wouldn't be of much help to someone with thick coarse hair who needs to shave daily.

what do 'ye say?

My very first straight razor was sent out to be honed. It came back only moderately sharp. I vowed never to waste $20 bucks on such a service again, and I haven't. I personally hone all the razors I use. As a caveat, I don't mean that a honing service is a waste but that if the honemeister you use is inadequate, then sending a razor to that person is a waste.

 

[GsSixgun]

And of course the honemeisters have an economic incentive to deny that factory edges might be shave-ready.

I say this because I believe this is essentially the situation we're in now. All but one new razor I have purchased in recent years has needed nothing more than a good stropping on unpasted linen to deliver an acceptable shave, and probably needing only a dozen or two laps or so on chrome oxide or dovo black to deliver a really outstanding shave.

Mr. Parker:
This is one of the very few times that you and I do not see eye to eye ....

Defining Factory edges as Dovo and TI of course, I would wholeheartedly disagree that there are anywhere near 100% they are first off factory honed with the spine lifted which leaves a very, very, steep bevel.. which I agree that "you" could strop into a semi-rounded shave-able condition...

Also you took a huge leap of faith with the statement "more than a good stropping"

I think that an expert such as yourself can strop a factory edge into shape, to say a Newb could is a huge stretch of the imagination...

I have watched in person too many times as newbies and not so newbies have tried to strop razors, it is enough to get them not to roll the edge, let alone to try a do a corrective style stropping...

Also keep in mind very little of my personal honing Biz comes from factory edges so I really have nothing to lose here....

 

[TstebinsB]

I have two questions that go along with the discussion:
- Is a shave-ready razor both honed and stropped or simply honed?
- Do honemeisters strop every razor they hone?

 

[GsSixgun]

I have two questions that go along with the discussion:
- Is a shave-ready razor both honed and stropped or simply honed?
- Do honemeisters strop every razor they hone?

What other's do I can't speak for

Mine come with a letter stating how they were honed and stropped to a truly shave ready condition....

Mine actually say don't do anything the first time other than rinse the oil off and shave... I want the edge condition to be on me not on my customers ability or lack of ability to strop it up...

Most reputable honemiesters shave test every razor, we might only do a patch/stroke but we do test them...

My personal test is an ATG stroke right off the hones, if it cuts with no hangups it passes.... It is a rather harsh test but we are sending razors out to mostly newer shavers who don't have as confident a hand as an experienced shaver.... So the better the edge is, the better off they start...

One other thing that an aspiring honemiester should start trying, or actually, anyone that hones, is shaving your edge right off the hone,, NO stropping at all, this can really be an eye opening experience to those of you that think you hone well... As Mr. Parker pointed out earlier the strop can really add to and edge in the right hands... If you can get a good shave off the hones then you are sending out a great edge that has tons of life to it...


That's my story and I am sticking to it

 

[TstebinsB]

Great points, Glen.

At SRP, I asked a question about whether a blade that couldn't go ATG was shave-ready. Some people didn't think it was necessary. It's a high standard but it's nice to see someone implement it.

When I first started honing, I didn't have a strop so I'd do shave a test area w/o stropping. It was pretty rough those first few go arounds but once I could do it comfortably, I knew I was improving. By now, I'm confident enough in my honing to strop right after and then test shave.

 

[professorchaos]

Being able to shave ATG is indeed a high standard. It is also the only standard, in my mind, for calling a straight shave ready.

Is a blade that can only complete 2/3 of a shave in fact shave ready? I don't think so.

 

[gugi]

My personal test is an ATG stroke right off the hones, if it cuts with no hangups it passes....
...

One other thing that an aspiring honemiester should start trying, or actually, anyone that hones, is shaving your edge right off the hone

Glen, I think it will be no surprise to you that I do just that every now and then, but for a completely different reason - I'm just too lazy to strop and if I have to go back to hone it more all that stropping or making lather was a waste, wasn't it
I actually saw that italian guy do the dry shaving off the palm stropping (well he also does the chromium oxide), so I figured I'm not all that weird that I need to keep it as a shameful secret....
And yeah I'm always happy to have some more of those newbie-friendly edges of yours

--LB

 

[jzono1]

If it can't go directly to atg with up to 10mm of stubble I'm not satisfied. 2, even 3 pass shaving is such a bother.

ATG is a tough test, especially if one skips the rest of the passes. After two days I can actually tell how sharp the straight I used was, just based on the stubble growth. Clean consistent cuts and the stubble regrowth all points in the same direction in each area + the stubble feels soft.

I think the bevel ended up bad last time I honed my Friodur; it shaves perfectly on one side of my face, and barely manages the other side.

 

[Bacchus]

My personal test is an ATG stroke right off the hones, if it cuts with no hangups it passes....

And this is why Im going to send one of my razors to you when I decide to try out a honemeister.... well that and because you're in Idaho... I used to live in Boise

 

[gugi]

My personal test is an ATG stroke right off the hones

glen, you're a genius!

i just honed a razor and when i was eventually happy with my usual tests it did nice atg straight from the hone. and another razor that's been just waiting for shave-test did as well, while a couple that i've tested and decided they could use more work didn't!

the only problem is that the spot on my chin where i kept testing it as i was progressing hurts from all the times the razor was pulling before i was done (you know i've got to check for false positives too).

that's why i've got no desire and interest of ever becoming anything close to honemeister, even if just self-proclaimed.

next task is mr. parker's challenge - strop this brand new razor i've got into shaving well.

 

[leighton]

I test it right off the 8k. Don't bother going any further unless its both popping hairs and shaving ATG in three spots.

 

[SavantStrike]

If it can't go directly to atg with up to 10mm of stubble I'm not satisfied. 2, even 3 pass shaving is such a bother.

ATG is a tough test, especially if one skips the rest of the passes. After two days I can actually tell how sharp the straight I used was, just based on the stubble growth. Clean consistent cuts and the stubble regrowth all points in the same direction in each area + the stubble feels soft.

I think the bevel ended up bad last time I honed my Friodur; it shaves perfectly on one side of my face, and barely manages the other side.

So I'm not the only one who feels like the stubble grows back softer with a straight than anything else. There is non scientific proof! Two people said it!

I don't think I've ever tried shaving straight off the hone except a quick screwing around pass after 4k (it didn't feel good either... maybe my edges have gotten better but even still). I will have to try that. What is a successful benchmark for this test (i.e. what should one shoot for). Complete comfort (as comfortable as with beard preparation and lather), or something slightly less? What if one's skin doesn't like ATG? Is XTG an okay substitute?

 

[gugi]

next task is mr. parker's challenge - strop this brand new razor i've got into shaving well.

Tested two Thiers-Issard razors, one just honed and finished with naniwa 12k, the other brand new (both have the older TI steel). I have actually tested the brand new razor once before to check the factory edge, however I didn't strop it excessively back then. My impression from that test was that the razor is at best barely shave-ready, but it can remove beard if one is really motivated.

The new razor received about 200 laps on the canvas strop (a vintage one with the original dressing on it, and I've used it for a while, so it's fairly gray). The freshly honed razor received the usual 30-50 strokes on the same canvas. Both got 30-50 strokes on horsehide leather strop.

The new razor definitely shaved but with a bit of pulling. I am pretty certain a newbie would consider it inadequate, I certainly do so. The honed razor shaved without pulling and I consider it shave ready, even though I believe the edge can be improved a bit further.

I will add 100 laps on CrO pasted balsa to both razors and test again.

What is a successful benchmark for this test (i.e. what should one shoot for).

I wanted the razor to shave beard without any hungup or pulling. It was an experiment for me, and I kept testing at various stages even though I was not done with the razor yet, just so that I know what the razor feels like (I won't be repeating this). So I was just splashing some water on my chin which seems to be the hardest part to shave and within 5 seconds I was trying ATG. The goal for me was not to produce some unbelieveably sharp edge, it was to find out how such test correlates with my usual tests.

These tests are only useful to the person honing the razor, so you can do whatever you like. At the end of the day all that matters is whether the person who shaves with the razor likes the experience, or not, and any tests are just means to that end.

 

[mparker762]

I have watched in person too many times as newbies and not so newbies have tried to strop razors, it is enough to get them not to roll the edge, let alone to try a do a corrective style stropping...

This is probably the crux of our disagreement. Given that newbies frequently can't even shave with a shave-ready edge, and often their attempts at stropping a shave-ready edge result in a non-shave-ready edge, I'm not sure that we should define shave-readiness by reference to newbies requirements. Rather I think we should treat them as a special-case circumstance. I agree that newbies should have their razors honed by somebody that knows what they're doing, just to reduce the number of variables that can adversely affect that first shave.

However as valuable as a sharp razor is, I do think that a better service is a combination honing job/honing lesson, and although I realize that this is not something that can be adequately provided by the relatively small number of honemeisters on these forums, it seems that there are enough members on these forums that most newbies could find some member in the area to show them the honing and stropping ropes over the course of an hour.

 

[leighton]

Stropping yes, honing probably not.

I'm more than willing to spend time with anyone in my area to teach them stropping techniques. I'm also willing to schedule time to teach anyone honing. However, that would depend very much on my time constraints.

Just wondering mparker, but what would be the best way to get a new enthusiast shaving? Assuming all the limitations inherent with our lifestyle; ie lack of other SR shavers in the area to teach.

 

[GsSixgun]

This is probably the crux of our disagreement. Given that newbies frequently can't even shave with a shave-ready edge, and often their attempts at stropping a shave-ready edge result in a non-shave-ready edge, I'm not sure that we should define shave-readiness by reference to newbies requirements. Rather I think we should treat them as a special-case circumstance. I agree that newbies should have their razors honed by somebody that knows what they're doing, just to reduce the number of variables that can adversely affect that first shave.

However as valuable as a sharp razor is, I do think that a better service is a combination honing job/honing lesson, and although I realize that this is not something that can be adequately provided by the relatively small number of honemeisters on these forums, it seems that there are enough members on these forums that most newbies could find some member in the area to show them the honing and stropping ropes over the course of an hour.

All is right in the world again as we are simpatico again ....