Honing a wedge

[jlander]

I've already posted this at SRP, but I need as much input as I can get.

I acquired a Dubl-duck Satin Wedge with green translucent celullose scales off eBay last week and have spent this week getting a presentable surface on the blade. It's not mirror but it is much better.

Now I'm getting ready to try and hone it up. Any suggestions before I start. The edge looks ok thru a 10x loop and has some keeness at the toe. It's a butter knife at the heel. My tools consist of a Norton 4/8K, Yellow Coticule, a TM Canvas/Linen strop, and a TM Latigo/Brushed strop.

Any and all hints, suggestions, reccomendations, or plain instructins are welcome. I have honed up a few hollow ground blades, but this is my first attempt on a wedge.

Thanks,

 

[FloppyShoes]

It has been my experience that wedges (in general) hone just like hollow ground razors, except they take longer. Exactly how much longer depends on many things, but you should expect close to twice as long for a 1/4 hollow as compared to a full hollow.

Techniques for dealing with blade curvature are the same.

Taping works the same way too.

To avoid too much time and wear on the finishing hone, I sugest a progression as such for you...
1-2k until you have a fresh bevel on the length of the blade (concentrate on the heel in your case, use sandpaper on wood or glass if you don't have a coarse hone)
4k to remove the 1k scratch pattern
8k to remove the 4k scratch pattern
Yellow coticule or other 10k+ finishing hone for final polish. (if I were you, 30 or so laps with a slury, 15 or so without.)

This will guarantee a consistent edge in minimum time. N.B. you should remain on each stone only long enough to smooth out the scratch pattern from the last. Lastly, pay close attention while on the 1-2k, you only want to establish a bevel.

 

[joel]

I've already posted this at SRP, but I need as much input as I can get.

I acquired a Dubl-duck Satin Wedge with green translucent celullose scales off eBay last week and have spent this week getting a presentable surface on the blade. It's not mirror but it is much better.

Now I'm getting ready to try and hone it up. Any suggestions before I start. The edge looks ok thru a 10x loop and has some keeness at the toe. It's a butter knife at the heel. My tools consist of a Norton 4/8K, Yellow Coticule, a TM Canvas/Linen strop, and a TM Latigo/Brushed strop.

Any and all hints, suggestions, reccomendations, or plain instructins are welcome. I have honed up a few hollow ground blades, but this is my first attempt on a wedge.

Thanks,

Jay,
It's hard to say without seeing the specific razor - but first make SURE your Norton is totally flat, or you'll be wasting quite a bit of time.

For me personally, I don't do crazy pyramid schemes and fall into the folklore and wacky honing techniques - I just hone 'em till they're sharp.

Since I am lazy, and honing can be terribly time consuming, I personally have rougher hones in my array, as well as a bunch of abrasive papers - so for me, I'd start honing with the point leading on some pretty gritty stuff (maybe 10-15 passes each grit) and work my way up. (I'd look into getting plate glass and some cheap wet/dry abravise papers to quickly/rapidly establish an initial edge, I honed my mothers FLAT dull 30 year old henckels kitchen knife that had never been sharpened in a mere 5 minutes or so - and that S.O.B. would pop hairs when I was done with it)

Since you just have the 4K to work with, depending on the shape of the blade, you're going to have some work to do. Personally - I don't think Nortons cut all that quickly (or maybe i've just gotten 2 duds) but when you're working with a wedge, or a pretty dull edge - it just seemingly takes forever to get a workable edge on a flat dul razor - but in any case, I'd go to town with the 4K side, and from what it sounds like you may be in for hundreds of passes on it. If you lead with the tip, it should be a little more aggressive on the top portion of the bade, and hopefully make up for the sharp heel/dull tip, but if not, I've found small/light circles on the area that needs sharpening shuld work just fine. I'd work on the 4K side until you've got a workable edge that'll shave hairs from your arm, then backhone 2-3 passes on the 4K side, then switch to the 8K, polish out the scratch pattern from the 4K, and once buttery smooth, backhone 2-3 times, and jump to the Belgian - and give the Belgian 5-10 passes, with 2-3 backhones.

I find that 2-3 backhones before jumping to the next grit, or jumping to the strop actually imparts a smoother edge - especially if you're going to use diamond pastes afterwards. I dunno why (I've never cared about the science behind it - just the results) but I stumbled upon this by accident, and it works wonders, at least for me.

Hope this helps!

 

[mparker762]

If you've got one, a pasted hanger will hone that wedge up in a hurry. I've got one of Keith's roughout strops with flexcut gold on one side and boron carbide on the other, and those big english choppers hone up in a matter of minutes. I suspect diamond would work just as well, it's just a bit more expensive. Anyway, finish up with chrome oxide on the linen side of a hanger and you're done. Refreshes are a few laps on the chrome oxide-on-linen.

 

[jlander]

Thanks everyone for the responses.

I don't have a pasted strop, but I do have a selection of Arkansas stones that I've used for about 20 yrs. for sharpening knives. I didn't know if I should go that coarse on a razor. How about going to a hard Arkansas, and then to a translucent Arkansas before the Norton 4k. The hard Arkansas should be in the 1 to 2K grit range.

Joel: The Norton is flat. I used a DM6E diamond hone to flatten it at Howards reccomendation.

Regards,

 

[mparker762]

Thanks everyone for the responses.

I don't have a pasted strop, but I do have a selection of Arkansas stones that I've used for about 20 yrs. for sharpening knives. I didn't know if I should go that coarse on a razor. How about going to a hard Arkansas, and then to a translucent Arkansas before the Norton 4k. The hard Arkansas should be in the 1 to 2K grit range.

Joel: The Norton is flat. I used a DM6E diamond hone to flatten it at Howards reccomendation.

Regards,

The hard arkansas is coarse, but very very very slow. It's slow even on a hollow ground razor - on a wedge you'll get old before that thing gets sharp. You're better off sticking to the norton 4k. Lap the Norton every 15 mins or so to keep it flat and fresh for best speed and best sharpness.

 

[jlander]

Jay,
It's hard to say without seeing the specific razor - but first make SURE your Norton is totally flat, or you'll be wasting quite a bit of time.

For me personally, I don't do crazy pyramid schemes and fall into the folklore and wacky honing techniques - I just hone 'em till they're sharp.

Since I am lazy, and honing can be terribly time consuming, I personally have rougher hones in my array, as well as a bunch of abrasive papers - so for me, I'd start honing with the point leading on some pretty gritty stuff (maybe 10-15 passes each grit) and work my way up. (I'd look into getting plate glass and some cheap wet/dry abravise papers to quickly/rapidly establish an initial edge, I honed my mothers FLAT dull 30 year old henckels kitchen knife that had never been sharpened in a mere 5 minutes or so - and that S.O.B. would pop hairs when I was done with it)

Since you just have the 4K to work with, depending on the shape of the blade, you're going to have some work to do. Personally - I don't think Nortons cut all that quickly (or maybe i've just gotten 2 duds) but when you're working with a wedge, or a pretty dull edge - it just seemingly takes forever to get a workable edge on a flat dul razor - but in any case, I'd go to town with the 4K side, and from what it sounds like you may be in for hundreds of passes on it. If you lead with the tip, it should be a little more aggressive on the top portion of the bade, and hopefully make up for the sharp heel/dull tip, but if not, I've found small/light circles on the area that needs sharpening shuld work just fine. I'd work on the 4K side until you've got a workable edge that'll shave hairs from your arm, then backhone 2-3 passes on the 4K side, then switch to the 8K, polish out the scratch pattern from the 4K, and once buttery smooth, backhone 2-3 times, and jump to the Belgian - and give the Belgian 5-10 passes, with 2-3 backhones.

I find that 2-3 backhones before jumping to the next grit, or jumping to the strop actually imparts a smoother edge - especially if you're going to use diamond pastes afterwards. I dunno why (I've never cared about the science behind it - just the results) but I stumbled upon this by accident, and it works wonders, at least for me.

Hope this helps!

I have some 400 grit wet/dry Norton sandpaper. Would you go that coarse? And it has a sharp tip/dull heel, so lead with the heel?

 

[mparker762]

I have some 400 grit wet/dry Norton sandpaper. Would you go that coarse? And it has a sharp tip/dull heel, so lead with the heel?

I'd stay away from the sandpaper - it tends to oval the edge, which can take a lot of time to fix on the hone even on a hollow ground razor. Like Joel, I never found the 4k Norton to be terribly fast, but it will do the trick eventually.

Angle the razor about 45 degrees on the hone, and lead with the heel. I'm not realy sure why such an extreme angle helps with a wedge, but it does. Lap the norton every 15 minutes or so to keep it flat - with a hollow ground razor a little bit of dishing isn't a big deal because there's so little metal to remove when you go to the next (freshly lapped) grit, but with a wedge this doesn't work. Don't be afraid to use a bit of pressure in the early going - once the razor is equally sharp heel to toe then relap the hone and lighten up on the pressure.

Where are you in Texas, btw? I'm in Houston, on the west side.

 

[jlander]

I'd stay away from the sandpaper - it tends to oval the edge, which can take a lot of time to fix on the hone even on a hollow ground razor. Like Joel, I never found the 4k Norton to be terribly fast, but it will do the trick eventually.

Angle the razor about 45 degrees on the hone, and lead with the heel. I'm not realy sure why such an extreme angle helps with a wedge, but it does. Lap the norton every 15 minutes or so to keep it flat - with a hollow ground razor a little bit of dishing isn't a big deal because there's so little metal to remove when you go to the next (freshly lapped) grit, but with a wedge this doesn't work. Don't be afraid to use a bit of pressure in the early going - once the razor is equally sharp heel to toe then relap the hone and lighten up on the pressure.

Where are you in Texas, btw? I'm in Houston, on the west side.

Thanks, I'll start tonight. I'm going to take my time with this one. It's one I want to keep.

I'm in Baytown.

 

[Lynn]

The 4K Norton is plenty abrasive. I use it to remove small nicks rather than going to a lower grit. The real key on the wedge honing is using the 45 degree angle. The pyramid will help from a consistency standpoint. The real problem with wedges is that once the shoulders are honed down and the edge expands, it gets tricky on the number of strokes and to make sure you get or keep the edge even.

Have fun,

Lynn

 

[joel]

I have some 400 grit wet/dry Norton sandpaper. Would you go that coarse? And it has a sharp tip/dull heel, so lead with the heel?

400 grit sandpaper? Errr.. I wouldn't. For what it's worth - the sandpapers I use are with a "scary sharp system" and the papers stick to the plate glass, from 200 - 2500 grit (different grit scale, as the 2500 in this kit is mighty fine), however I JUST got a few DMT diamond hones today, and while I got one dud (the "fine" one is all sorts of messed up and full of VERY coarse hunks) I used the other to take a few FLAT dull razors, and create and workable bevel (and an edge aggressive enough to cut hair - although no HHT) in just a few strokes... it was incredibly impressive. Taking a razor on that for just a few strokes, moving to the 4K, jumping to the 8K and hitting a Belgian afterwards gave me surprisingly excellent results, and the WHOLE process was maybe 5-7 minutes. Hands down, the quickest I have ever gotten a flat dull razor shave ready. Those DMT plates are insane!

I think Mparker gave you some solid advice... with what you've got, it sounds like you've got a little work in store for you.

 

[Steerpike]

I find with wedges I can't seem to put the final edge on them just with the hone. No trouble with hollow ground razord, a light touch and lather on the hone gets the edge back with only a few strokes, but the wedges never seem to come off the hone shaving sharp. I end up giving them a few strokes on a pasted strop, which gets them just right easy peasy. I usually hone at 45 degrees or thereabouts, it seems to prevent a wire edge.
I notice that for whatever reason, I rarely need to hone the wedges- they hold the edge well for ages- one I have that I've not honed in well over a year, and I use it at least once a week, often more because it provides such a good shave. It still shaves as well as it did last time I honed it.

 

[jlander]

400 grit sandpaper? Errr.. I wouldn't. For what it's worth - the sandpapers I use are with a "scary sharp system" and the papers stick to the plate glass, from 200 - 2500 grit (different grit scale, as the 2500 in this kit is mighty fine), however I JUST got a few DMT diamond hones today, and while I got one dud (the "fine" one is all sorts of messed up and full of VERY coarse hunks) I used the other to take a few FLAT dull razors, and create and workable bevel (and an edge aggressive enough to cut hair - although no HHT) in just a few strokes... it was incredibly impressive. Taking a razor on that for just a few strokes, moving to the 4K, jumping to the 8K and hitting a Belgian afterwards gave me surprisingly excellent results, and the WHOLE process was maybe 5-7 minutes. Hands down, the quickest I have ever gotten a flat dull razor shave ready. Those DMT plates are insane!

I think Mparker gave you some solid advice... with what you've got, it sounds like you've got a little work in store for you.

Thanks, I might add more of the DMT plates to my collection (no matter what I do here it always ends up with a collection of some kind ). I have 1, the DM6E that Howard recommended for lapping the Norton. It seems a little coarse for a razor. Maybe not for a lawn mower blade. Anyway, right now I'm kinda like the teenager that just got there license, I don't mind sitting with the hone yet (as long as I'm not sreweing something up).

I think a pasted strop and some DMT hones are in my future.

Thanks everyone for some great advice and loss prevention.

Regards,

 

[Thebigspendur]

I'll just echo what I said over on SRP. The satin wedge is basically a 4/8s razor and I wouldn't go to town with it the way you would a W&B 8/8s meatchopper. The satin wedge is really a junior wedge and usually unless its really messed up hones up pretty quickly for a wedge. Once the bevel is in good shape I wouldn't spend much time on a 4000K or coarser. The 8K should be enough and then finish on the coticule. Just don't overdo it and check often.

 

[jlander]

OK folks, tomorrow is the big test. Thanks to all of you for some great ideas, and direction. You kept me from making some really dumb mistakes. I believe I have a shaveable edge on it now and will find out in the morning

Thanks again.

Regards,