Honing a brand new Thiers Issard 7/8

[Bobski]

Quite familiar to honing, been going fine for a fair few years, but you are never too old to learn something. Over the last 6 Months I've bought two new razors, both Dovo 6/8. Both are now ok, but it was no walk in the park. Should I have touched up the factory edge (wasn't good enough out of the box) with a finishing hone or re set the bevel. On the 1st one I did that, and whilst it shaved it wasn't quite what I wanted. The 2nd I went back to the 1k chosera and honed up to the gok 20. Sure, that did the truck, but, with tape I still found myself doing a lot of work to get it right. I questioned my technique, which had been fine over a number of years, but always seemed to get a bit apprehensive on a brand new one. Tomorrow I have a Thiers Issard 7/8 Kingwood c 135 thumb notch arriving brand new. I use tape. But I'm looking forward to it arriving, but a bit unsure of the best way to handle this new one.
I'm looking for a new perspective, a fresh set of eyes, an opinion on a reliable method. I have 2 other carbonsong 135 TI'S so I'm familiar with the steel. This new one is a beautiful piece, and I want to get it right first time. I've considered the touch up of the factory edge and going back to the 1k. My stones are Naniwa's 1k chosera, superstones 2k, 3k,5k, 8k, 10 k and Suehiro Gokumyo 20k. I liken it to putting in golf, when you get the yips. I normally am sweet with honing, but I'm over thinking this TI. I'm thinking at the moment of using a layer of tape, and do half strokes on the chosera with the slurry from the conditioning stone, and getting that bevel cut right away rather than touch up some skinny factory edge. Bit of advice fellas, I might just need a kick in the pants, but does anyone, esp pros have a technique used just for these new ones.
Thanks Bob.

 

[TheFear]

I'll tag along here too. I have a TI with a factory edge that's shavable but not great.

 

[rob746913]

I'll tag along here too. I have a TI with a factory edge that's shavable but not great.

Same here so I'm going to tag along also

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[Steve56]

If you want to do everything you can from the beginning, here's what I would do.

First, you need to know what you're dealing with before you start honing. I would first of all, hold the razor up to a bright background looking straight on at the spine, you're looking to see that the blade is not bent or grossly uneven in thickness. Next, put a straight edge (a real one) along the spine on both sides to check for bends and warps. You might see a little uneveness because of the factory grind but the blade should not be bananna shaped for example. If you're seeing a bent razor it's time to negotiate a replacement before it hits the rocks. I doubt you'll see anything like this but it only takes a few seconds to look.

Next take a Sharpie and ink the spine and the bevel, then take a pass or two with light pressure across your 10k stone. I normally use my bevel setter here, but you're trying to avoid marking the razor if things aren't what they should be and the razor needs to go back. Ideally you should see that the Sharpie is evenly removed all along the bevel and the spine. What you'll probably see are some minor high and low spots on the spine which will hone out as the spine flattens on the hones, and you may see some areas where the bevel isn't hitting perfectly at the toe and heel due to a little smile. You may also see that the apex isn't hitting right especially if the razor was factory sharpened with the spine off the wheel if that's how they did it. A bad thing to see is a low spot on the bevel, basically a frown from the factory because the hollow is overground, usually in the middle on one side. That's grounds for separation on a new razor. You might also mike the spine thickness above the heel, toe, and middle. This will tell you if the spine is relatively even or tapered, and give you some ideas of what to do if you have honing problems.

I would also measure the bevel angle so you'll know what the tape is doing, but if you always hone with tape there is less reason to do this. TIs sometimes have wide bevels so the tape may be of cosmetic use.

All of this so far has just been to find out if the razor has geometry problems that you need to know about when honing, or at worst if you should ask for a different razor. If you see problems with the Sharpie pattern, take some images so we can help or to provide justifiction for a return if needed. Everyone has bad days at the grinding wheel, got the hiccups while grinding, sneezed while grinding, not enough experience grinding....

If the razor passes muster, you're ready to go to the hones. I'll assume you're starting with a bevel set, I probably would unless the Sharpie test was perfect out to the apex and the scratch pattern very fine, like it had actually been honed on a finisher. It doesn't hurt to start on a finer stone in this case, like the 5k, but a 1k won't wear much as long as you're watching.

Before you start, look at the bevel with magnification, a hand magnifier is fine and note what the scratch pattern looks like especially at the toe and heel. Start honing and after 20 or so strokes, take another look and aee how the scratches are being removed along the bevel and the 'new' bevel is developing and adjust your stroke to hit the entire edge. Many times you'll see the bevel needs a little more attention at the toe and heel.

I test for bevel set at 1k (2k Shapton Pro for me actually) by inspection under magnifiction and by using the cherry tomato test but any test you're familiar with will do. The problem with most tests are that they don't do a very good job at the last few mm of the toe and heel. You should use the hand magnifier to check that the bevel planes are meeting all along the egde, if you can see that they aren't then keep at it until they do. My next and final bevel set test is at 5k. When I'm done with 5k, give the razor a half steopping (10 linen 20 leather) and use the HHT to test the edge. It should pass easily and be the same out to the last mm of the edge. It probably won't be, but if it is the bevel is perfectly set. If it doesn't pass HHT, examine the areas that don't pass with magnifiction. Sometimes you can miss the bevel set a little but the lower grit tests and visuals don't tell you until you get a little finer. Going back at this stage is not a bad thing.

Wash, rinse, and repeat as you go up through the grits, check the scratch pattern with magnification for uniformity before going on to the next stone.

Hope this helps and good luck!

Cheers, Steve

 

[kelbro]

^^ Great write-up ^^

I always start a new razor out with 'my' edge. That way I know exactly what I'm dealing with and am never disappointed with that first shave.

 

[Bobski]

Great stuff Steve. And thanks a lot for taking the time to do it for us. A couple of times this geometry issue has occurred on identical razors that weren't identical. I've done my own warping tests, but I've not inked both spine and edge together, makes damn good sense. This razor arrives in a couple of hours, and if I were a drinking man and it was after midday, I think I'd take a shot. it arrives today, so I'll report back on just how things go. I am inclined to go back to the start. Really helpful. Thanks Bob

 

[gary haywood]

I no,a chap who hones ti razors for a vendor he always adds a layer of tape. He then starts at the 8 k to 12 k then 20 k g. He kind of produces a secondary bevel with the 8 k . Might be worth a try first.

 

[buca3152]

All the 135s ive honed i used a 4k (6 micron) dmt. Cuts faster than my.chosera 1k. Then back to 1k and up. Jmo and.never missed one doing it that way. Watch the swarf. If you get very little to none on your low grits then you can either do it with a dmt or constantly refresh the grit on your stone with a.diamond.plate or refresh stone(choseras offered them with the old series).

 

[RayClem]

I have a TI 6/8 Sheep and Wolf. I purchased it from Smallflower. They offered to hone it before shipment, but said that honing could delay shipment up to 2 weeks, so I decided to try the factory edge. I figured I could do a touch up if necessary. It gave a beautiful shave right out of the box with only stropping.

I have had it a couple of months and have not had to do a refresh yet. The steel is holding its edge quite well.

 

[Bobski]

Well, this has turned out interestingly. I opened the box, clearly straight from the manufacturer untouched by the retailer. My mistake was not sending it back. Whoever at Thiers Issard that honed this razor made a mess of it. Uneven bevel and a large chip as well. I was so caught up in what I was going to do with it, that I decided to go ahead and fix the problem and hone it up. I went to the Chosera 1k to get the chip sorted out, and the razor came all chippy, and I had maybe four more smaller chips appear. By now I'm thinking, 'you idiot, should have sent it back'.
I gathered my thoughts, and I remembered some honing advice given to me by Mike Brandonisio of 'the Restored Razor ' I think his tag on here is mbrando. I have a couple of his razors and the shaves were exceptional, I mean, really good. So much so I asked how he gets his done. It turns out that he sets his bevels with a dmt325, and converts up through polishing stones. I as you can imagine, was a little hesitant putting this new Thiers Issard on a dmt325.
All those things aside I followed Mike's advice, and the razor now shaves fine. I set the bevel with one layer of tape which I replaced once during the setting of that bevel. I then went to a Naniwa superstone 2k to convert those stria and onto polishing stones.
So the moral to this story is check your TI'S before you accept them, and, there is nothing wrong with setting a bevel on a DMT 325.
I hope someone else has a word or two on this, a real eye opener for me.

 

[Slash McCoy]

The sharpie test is a great diagnostic tool. If you don't have a sharpie in your honing kit, you don't have a honing kit.

Me, I always set the bevel from scratch on a new to me razor. However, for a beginner it doesn't hurt to try the edge that is already on the razor, first. Initially, pass the razor over your forearm, about 1/4" above the skin, and see if it treetops any hairs. If it gets at least one hair tip per pass, go ahead and try to shave your face with it. If it gets a whole bunch of hairs in a pass, it is nice and sharp and should shave quite well. If you have to lower the razor down to 1/8" over your forearm to make it treetop, it really should be honed. If it won't even treetop at 1/8", it positively must be honed, beginning with a bevel.

Doesn't hurt a thing to simply do a touchup with a finisher, if the edge is just so so. If a few dozen very light laps makes it treetop nicely, then no need to set the bevel unless you just want to.

I do not use tape on a razor unless it is a wedge, or I have measured and calculated the bevel angle and decide that the angle is too acute. It is a tool, and not jewelry. Function, to me, absolutely trumps cosmetics, with no compromising. If your philosophy is different, feel free to use tape. It will be a long time before the effect becomes noticeable. But that's not how I roll.

I generally use the burr method for setting the bevel. It only needs to be done once, so I don't worry if I honed away a micropiconanogram of steel that could have stayed on the razor. And it is a self proving method with no room for guessing. Either the burr is present along the entire edge, or it is not. Then either it is there on the other side, or not. Then when the burr is honed away, the edge will cheerfully slaughter cherry tomatoes or grab thumbnails or thumbpads with the best of them.

Your hone progression will work fine. Be sure to lap the stones if they are new.

 

[RayClem]

The current steel used by Thiers Issard is C135 "carbonsong" steel. It has 1.35% carbon, so it is can be quite hard. Although hard can be good, it can also equate to brittle and chippy.

My TI Sheep and Wolf gave a good shave right from the factory, but I had to refresh the blade yesterday. I always try to hone without tape if possible. With hard steel, go slow and hone with minimal pressure. Excessive blade pressure on a hard finishing hone can easily cause microchips in hard steel.

The Gokumyo 20K is an exceptionally hard stone, so you would have to be very careful with that. Using tape with a hard steel strengthens the edge by making a less acute angle if you cannot stop the chipping without it.

 

[mbrando]

Hello Bob!

I've noticed that many of the factory new Thiers Issard razors that coming through here for honing have a very very slight frown and the steel is harder than other new blades like Dovo. However, once the bevel is set I'd say the Thiers Issard razors always take the sharpest edge of all the new blades I hone. It's really good steel.

 

[Rotflmao]

A lot of great info here. Thanks for taking the time everyone.

 

[Steve56]

Thanks @mbrando, interesting info on the TIs. I too like a good one, not so much my 7/8 Basic Black with wavy wide bevel. The others are OK.

But I will agree and admit that wide wavy razor shaves like a million bucks.

Cheers, Steve

 

[Bobski]

Great info gents. It certainly has helped me especially about the behaviour of the Thiers Issard steel. I think it could apply too for some of the stainless razors. I have a couple of Dovo Grenadille 6/8 in stainless (not flowing) and they took a bit of work to get going right. If I were to come up against a similar razor now, I might have approached it differently just alone from the info in this thread. Thanks.

 

[TheFear]

Great info. Thanks!

 

[Disburden]

There was a thread back several years ago on coticule.be that the new ti razors needed two layers if tape to get an edge. I think Bart said he used one layer and then created a micro bevel with a second layer later on. Other wise the edge would crumble.

Food for thought. I have never owned a Theirs Issard.

 

[Bobski]

The edge certainly is delicate on these Thiers Issard razors. I can only re-afirm the method I borrowed from Mike (mbrando), where by avoiding a steep, acute angle and creating a distinct bevel down to a more robust final edge. The edge doesn't tend to collapse onto itself. My TI shaves fine now, but we'll see how long it lasts. If it is anything like other edges of Mike's it should be good for a while to come yet. So I own three 7/8 TI 's, and all shave beautifully, but you do have work hard to get an excellent edge. The company that sold me the 7/8 Kingwood is closing down and offered me it's twin for an unbeatable price, so, when it arrives I'll go straight to the DMT!

 

[rob746913]

Oh no so I think that means I will have to send mine out when it's time to get the edge refined. I am not acute at honing yet so sending it out is the only option for me. I love my TI it shaves so smooth no pulling or scraping of my flesh when I shave with it. Still learning as this is only my 3rd month of straight shaving and have a ways to go.

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