I've spent a few hours honing so far. I'm starting to develop a feel for it and am currently working at removing a smile from a hollow ground blade. Fortunately, this is the same blade that I've spent a few hours grinding to remove some pretty serious pitting. I doubt that this practice blade will ever be truly shave-ready, because I'm probably going to use it to practice removing and re-attaching scales. But I got it for practice so it's serving its purpose. I can tell that really getting good at honing is going to be a fairly long journey, but it's sort of hypnotic. I put a story tape in my pocket cassette player and start in and before I know it, it's two hours later.
Honeward bound.
- Thread starter Rick Sparks
- Start date
Sounds interesting Rick. I would recommend a RadioShack microscope. Honing is very similar, in my opinion, to sculpting, in steel. Once you can see what you are doing, the endless lap progressions end.
- Thread starter
- #3
Bruce, Is there a particular microscope I should get? I don't know how strong a magnification I need. Thanks.
A handheld one, 30X is plenty for checking bevel.
Can you post a picture of the smile? Some are made that way.
- Thread starter
- #5
Sorry, but I've already ground out the smile and put a shaving edge on the blade. One further question if I may, is 30X enough magnification to tell the difference between the grooves left by a 4000 and an 8000 stone? Thanks.
Yes, kinda.
The microscope is 90% just for checking to see that the bevel is properly set, that it goes all the way to the edge.
Once that is done, unless you are comparing different polishing stones, the microscope is pretty pointless unless you want to keep checking to make sure every level of stone is leaving an even bevel.
With properly lapped stone and consistent technique, checking won't be necessary.
If I check with the microscope after 8K(maybe) I can see some scratch pattern, and some of it disappearing.
Hope that helps, but probably just muddied the waters a bit more huh?
The microscope is 90% just for checking to see that the bevel is properly set, that it goes all the way to the edge.
Once that is done, unless you are comparing different polishing stones, the microscope is pretty pointless unless you want to keep checking to make sure every level of stone is leaving an even bevel.
With properly lapped stone and consistent technique, checking won't be necessary.
If I check with the microscope after 8K(maybe) I can see some scratch pattern, and some of it disappearing.
Hope that helps, but probably just muddied the waters a bit more huh?
- Thread starter
- #7
I guess what I'm after is a way to make sure that a straight razor really is shave-ready. I read a thread here a while back in which the efforts of several honers were judged using a microscope. I believe the magnification was 800x. The judges could tell huge differences in the actual cutting edges at this magnification. I've got a pretty fair number of straights I'd like to sell, but I'm seriously in need of a way of being just as sure as I can that they're shave-ready before offering them. Even if a microscope is overkill, I'd rest easier knowing my blades would meet anyone's standards.
That's why microscopes are not worth the time other than bevel setting. You can't be sure till you shave with it. Even then, your shave ready might not be anywhere close to mine, and I would have to hone to my preference.
On a hollow ground razor, the edge usually follows the shape of the spine.
Some spines are straight and the razors edge is straight.
However some spines have a deliberate curve in them. The pipe razor for example has a curve. On these razors the edge will have a smile to match the curve in the spine.
I think that the idea of the curve in the spine is to put a springy tension on the blades edge and in this way to make the shave more comfortable.
On wedges with a curve in the spine, the smile is often quite pronounced.
Although you have removed the smile, many barbers would deliberately hone a smile into an edge because they are considered by many to give a more comfortable to shave. The one's I have used, I have generally enjoyed.
I don't harp on about the skill of the vintage blade manufacturers but they were something else. Can you imagine going to buy one in England at the turn of the century. Say about 1903. What size would you like Sir? Does Sir have a preference for grind? Does Sir have a preference for a particular style at the point? Spanish? French? American? English? Is that with a smile or just straight? Do you want a mirror finish? Gimps, top? Bottom? None at all or both? Does Sir have a preference for handle material? Plastic? Bone?Ebony? Ivory? Tortoise shell? Is that one, on its own or would Sir prefer a two day or a seven day set? We can get the spine decorated if you would like. Oh your a barber! Why didn't you say? We've got some much more robust three pin jobs over here. Do you want a barbers notch? Would you like a monkey tail tang on that? We have just got some special razors from Germany that you might want to try. They are getting a good reputation. Puma is the make. They use a special quality steel that is much more refined than the normal German stuff. The mirror finish isn't quite up to the Sheffield standard but they come with a great guarantee not that you will need it, the quality is as second to none.
Sorry, I digress.
Whatever, the really bad edge is one with a frown, This comes about from one thing only. Bad honing. Sometimes if a hone has hump rather than the normal dip, the hone will very quickly put a frown. Also if you hone badly on a narrow hone, over time the edge will develop a frown.
But if you have removed the smile and replaced it with a straight edge, that is a great learning success. Did you straighten the edge first and then rehone it? Did you breadknife the blade to do it? Did you use tape? If you didn't, its worth practicing putting a new edge with say two pieces of tape on the spine. Then remove the tape and put the edge back to normal. You will then see what tape really does to an edge and if you will ever wish to use it. I think tape is really useful on near wedge type blades, but otherwise, I think it is destructive. But you try the experiment and judge for yourself. It a great time to try it with a test blade.
Now days, I try to buy blades that don't need that sort of treatment. I think it is just too much work. It is incidentally why I get really annoyed when unsuspecting new guys get sent a new blade with a major fault that they have no chance of correcting for themselves without probably ruining the blade in the process of learning how to make the correction. That's ofcourse assuming they have a full set of hones in the back shed.
Some spines are straight and the razors edge is straight.
However some spines have a deliberate curve in them. The pipe razor for example has a curve. On these razors the edge will have a smile to match the curve in the spine.
I think that the idea of the curve in the spine is to put a springy tension on the blades edge and in this way to make the shave more comfortable.
On wedges with a curve in the spine, the smile is often quite pronounced.
Although you have removed the smile, many barbers would deliberately hone a smile into an edge because they are considered by many to give a more comfortable to shave. The one's I have used, I have generally enjoyed.
I don't harp on about the skill of the vintage blade manufacturers but they were something else. Can you imagine going to buy one in England at the turn of the century. Say about 1903. What size would you like Sir? Does Sir have a preference for grind? Does Sir have a preference for a particular style at the point? Spanish? French? American? English? Is that with a smile or just straight? Do you want a mirror finish? Gimps, top? Bottom? None at all or both? Does Sir have a preference for handle material? Plastic? Bone?Ebony? Ivory? Tortoise shell? Is that one, on its own or would Sir prefer a two day or a seven day set? We can get the spine decorated if you would like. Oh your a barber! Why didn't you say? We've got some much more robust three pin jobs over here. Do you want a barbers notch? Would you like a monkey tail tang on that? We have just got some special razors from Germany that you might want to try. They are getting a good reputation. Puma is the make. They use a special quality steel that is much more refined than the normal German stuff. The mirror finish isn't quite up to the Sheffield standard but they come with a great guarantee not that you will need it, the quality is as second to none.
Sorry, I digress.
Whatever, the really bad edge is one with a frown, This comes about from one thing only. Bad honing. Sometimes if a hone has hump rather than the normal dip, the hone will very quickly put a frown. Also if you hone badly on a narrow hone, over time the edge will develop a frown.
But if you have removed the smile and replaced it with a straight edge, that is a great learning success. Did you straighten the edge first and then rehone it? Did you breadknife the blade to do it? Did you use tape? If you didn't, its worth practicing putting a new edge with say two pieces of tape on the spine. Then remove the tape and put the edge back to normal. You will then see what tape really does to an edge and if you will ever wish to use it. I think tape is really useful on near wedge type blades, but otherwise, I think it is destructive. But you try the experiment and judge for yourself. It a great time to try it with a test blade.
Now days, I try to buy blades that don't need that sort of treatment. I think it is just too much work. It is incidentally why I get really annoyed when unsuspecting new guys get sent a new blade with a major fault that they have no chance of correcting for themselves without probably ruining the blade in the process of learning how to make the correction. That's ofcourse assuming they have a full set of hones in the back shed.
- Thread starter
- #10
On his videos, Tony Coronado (or is his first name David?) recommends against using tape on a hollow ground blade and, since all of the straights I have are hollow ground, I'm going with his reasoning that the spine needs to be ground down along with the edge to maintain the original relationship. However, if I hadn't already taken the smile out of this blade I might have tried the tape thing as this blade, which was in pretty rough shape, was always intended for learning, not for real restoration.
I got the smile out by doing sort of curvy strokes, lifting the heel of the blade. I did this mostly on the 220 grit side of my 1000/220 stone, then moved to the 1000 side. I had most of the smile out (except for a little bit toward the heel) before moving to the 4000. I haven't done more work on this blade. I wasn't having much luck getting an actual shaving edge, so I tried working on a blade that was in good shape except for being dull.
I was using Bill Ellis' technique of straight strokes and extra pressure. Maybe I didn't do it right, but it didn't work well for me. Then I read about the pyramid technique and noticed that nearly everyone on this forum said to use no pressure and 'X' strokes. More like what Mr. Coronado recommends.
I was able to get a shaving edge in about fifteen minutes.
My technique isn't very steady or smooth yet. I find myself lifting the spine unintentionally on some strokes, but I'm mostly pushing a pretty even wave of water ahead of the blade and I know I'm going to get a feel for this.
I got the smile out by doing sort of curvy strokes, lifting the heel of the blade. I did this mostly on the 220 grit side of my 1000/220 stone, then moved to the 1000 side. I had most of the smile out (except for a little bit toward the heel) before moving to the 4000. I haven't done more work on this blade. I wasn't having much luck getting an actual shaving edge, so I tried working on a blade that was in good shape except for being dull.
I was using Bill Ellis' technique of straight strokes and extra pressure. Maybe I didn't do it right, but it didn't work well for me. Then I read about the pyramid technique and noticed that nearly everyone on this forum said to use no pressure and 'X' strokes. More like what Mr. Coronado recommends.
I was able to get a shaving edge in about fifteen minutes.
My technique isn't very steady or smooth yet. I find myself lifting the spine unintentionally on some strokes, but I'm mostly pushing a pretty even wave of water ahead of the blade and I know I'm going to get a feel for this.
I think the thing about pressure with honing is that you don't want to flex the blade on the hone or you will ruin the geometry.
So you must use less pressure with a full hollow than a half hollow for example.
The other rule is that you should lighten the pressure as the grit gets smaller and as you progress through the hones.
I don't hold with this only use the weight of the blade and don't guide the blade with your fingertips. I think that you feel more through your finger tips and by using two hands and I feel you are more in control
I also think that guys who remove chips by only using the weight of the blade are either not quite telling the truth or they have too many hours to spare. It just isn't necessary to hone that way.
I totally agree though that watching the water movement in front of the blade is very instructive.
So you must use less pressure with a full hollow than a half hollow for example.
The other rule is that you should lighten the pressure as the grit gets smaller and as you progress through the hones.
I don't hold with this only use the weight of the blade and don't guide the blade with your fingertips. I think that you feel more through your finger tips and by using two hands and I feel you are more in control
I also think that guys who remove chips by only using the weight of the blade are either not quite telling the truth or they have too many hours to spare. It just isn't necessary to hone that way.
I totally agree though that watching the water movement in front of the blade is very instructive.
Disregard the above post.
Scales ON the razor are essential.
Good thing we have you here to constantly point out the... um... oddities.... of a certain poster's opinions. Keep it up, buddy
Disregard the above post.
Scales ON the razor are essential.
In cityjim's defense, you could make an argument in favor of removing the scales if the hone were supported on a table and you were using two hands to guide the razor. It wouldn't work at all for those of us who hold the hone in one hand and the razor in the other, plus the fact that 99% of scales do not have removable pins, that removing pins would reduce the value of a vintage razor and that removing pins and repinning is a general PIA and not worth the trouble.
Good point Chimensch .
Some razors like Wapi's have heavy scales . Important part is to keep the edge flat on the hone .
No doubt impossible for most razors with peened over non removable pins .
OP noted this . "because I'm probably going to use it to practice removing and re-attaching scales."
No need for microscopes either . Use a coarse stone till you get a wire . Then progress to finer stones . This is honing - not sickle cell research .
cityjim
Some razors like Wapi's have heavy scales . Important part is to keep the edge flat on the hone .
No doubt impossible for most razors with peened over non removable pins .
OP noted this . "because I'm probably going to use it to practice removing and re-attaching scales."
No need for microscopes either . Use a coarse stone till you get a wire . Then progress to finer stones . This is honing - not sickle cell research .
cityjim
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