honemeister advice needed! whether to use a beglain coticule after 12k naniwa

[Garrett]

Hi. I am trying to find a honing method that will give me the sharpness I need but a really soft smooth edge. I havent found it yet. Getting closer.

I use a full progression naniwa 1k-12k and the edge is sharp. I dont use pastes and usually strop on clean leather 80 times and then shave. Shaves well but the edge still a little hard on my face. I have coarse hair and delicate skin. The bevel is set correctly and it is sharp.

THis is the advice I need:

I was wondering if I used a Belgian yellow coticule with only water after the 12k would that give me a softer edge (i always keep reading that the coticules give butter soft edge) or would it make it duller and waste the work that was done. I know every coticule is different so it may be impossible to answer but Im asking the questions from those who might know. I have a beautiful one I paid about $400 for and dont use it.

I dont really understand coticules well and I know each one is different so some may improve it and some may harm it.

much appreciated any advice or thoughts.

best
Garrett

 

[Brooksie967]

I don't think going from the 12k back down to a coticule is the answer you're looking for.

Personally I'd stay on the coticule and once you are finished with your water only laps, use lather on the stone (made from soap) and do another 50 x strokes with just the weight of the blade. This is the only way I like a coticule edge.

Your other option is going from the 12k to a hanging strop or piece of balsa wood with CrOx on it which will add some convexity to the edge and impart a smoother feeling.

 

[Gamma]

First - I'm not a honemeister.

Now - what you might consider doing is learning how to use your Coticule.
Until then, your efforts to mix/match/improve/etc will probably frustrate you.

Having said that, Early on - I used a Coti to improve my 12k SS edges for a good amount of time. Not only for smoothness but for sharpness also. Keeping it simple - when I finished on the Coti, the edges were better in all regards.

Here - you've presented a situation with many many unknowns. For starters, we can't tell how good your 12k edge is, we don't even know how well you're setting the bevel.
I've received razors from people that were supposed to be shave-ready, honed this way or that way - etc, and the bevel was off by a mile and the edge was short as a result. Shavable, some were - yes. Loveable - most were not.
To be fair - some were outstanding.
So - when someone says their blade is shaving well - often, there's room for doubt.
I'm not insinuating that your edges aren't good - I'm talking about the bigger picture based on my experience here.

So - determining whether or not you will be able to improve it with a Coti you don't know how to use is impossible.
Right off the bat - I'd say no. Not until you learn how to squeeze every single last bit of capability out of that stone.

Can it be done - I believe so.

But the question is - can you pull it off?

That - will only be known if you try it and keep trying until you have exhausted all possibilities.

 

[Alum of Potash]

Intermediate level honer here. If your edges off the 12k Naniwa are "too sharp," then yes a coticule or a black or trans Ark or other stones afterwards would help to "smooth" things. Just a few laps (3-6) to temper things for starters though, as if you were using a barber's hone.

Another thing to do is to look at the Naniwa 12k edge in silhouette with a 10x or 20x color-corrected loupe. If some teeth are there, then either you are not making contact with the stone or you have too much standing water on the surface of the hone and this is causing the abrasive to be released from the binder, wrecking the edge. If the Naniwas are ceramic synth water stones like the Sigma Power IIs I have tried, then you should only use them in a dampened state and not with standing water on the surface. Dampened will result in a smooth, sharp edge.

 

[Steve56]

... or you have too much standing water on the surface of the hone and this is causing the abrasive to be released from the binder, wrecking the edge. If the Naniwas are ceramic synth water stones like the Sigma Power IIs I have tried, then you should only use them in a dampened state and not with standing water on the surface. Dampened will result in a smooth, sharp edge.

I don't believe I've ever heard this about ceramic synthetic stones. Do you have a citation or reference? Interesting!

Cheers, Steve

 

[Alum of Potash]

I don't believe I've ever heard this about ceramic synthetic stones. Do you have a citation or reference? Interesting!

Cheers, Steve

Sort of. If you study the videos that Stuart from toolsfromjapan has made for his site, he talks about it to some extent. I picked up one of his 400 Atoma, 1.2k, 6k, 13k Sigma Power II package deals around a year ago, so my opinion is derived from my experience here. At first, I was leaving standing water as is normally advised to watch it wash up on the blade, and my edges had the teeth that I mentioned off the 13k. Moving to the black Ark helped to smooth it afterwards. I kept Stuart abreast of my experiences, since he was curious as to how the stones would work with razors, and together we sort of concluded that the loose abrasive in the standing water was the culprit. And while Stuart is mostly concerned with honing wood chisels, he is a very knowledgeable guy about his product. He even talked me out of getting a 20k Gokumyo, insisting that the 13k would do the trick. And in the end, he was right.

 

[Brooksie967]

Sort of. If you study the videos that Stuart from toolsfromjapan has made for his site, he talks about it to some extent. I picked up one of his 400 Atoma, 1.2k, 6k, 13k Sigma Power II package deals around a year ago, so my opinion is derived from my experience here. At first, I was leaving standing water as is normally advised to watch it wash up on the blade, and my edges had the teeth that I mentioned off the 13k. Moving to the black Ark helped to smooth it afterwards. I kept Stuart abreast of my experiences, since he was curious as to how the stones would work with razors, and together we sort of concluded that the loose abrasive in the standing water was the culprit. And while Stuart is mostly concerned with honing wood chisels, he is a very knowledgeable guy about his product. He even talked me out of getting a 20k Gokumyo, insisting that the 13k would do the trick. And in the end, he was right.

Isn't it strange, and i'm not trying to argue here, that standing particles in water that would act like, dare i say, slurry of a natural stone, would in a synthetic case cause chipping/teeth while on a natural stone, specifically jnats and thuringians, a slurry almost always provides a smoother edge?

 

[Gamma]

Certainly does seem contradictory. I have found it to be true though.
I think it's because the synthetic particles don't break down, and they're shaped differently to begin with.

I only slurry the 1k C when I need more speed to cut, but after that I go water only and minimal water on top too.
I also rinse/clear the stone quite often. If I lap during that stage, I make sure I rinse the stone very very well before proceeding.
Otherwise, I don't seem to be able to get what I'm looking for off the stone.

 

[Alum of Potash]

Isn't it strange, and i'm not trying to argue here, that standing particles in water that would act like, dare i say, slurry of a natural stone, would in a synthetic case cause chipping/teeth while on a natural stone, specifically jnats and thuringians, a slurry almost always provides a smoother edge?

I can sympathize with you here to some extent, although I mostly use Arkansas oil-stones stones as naturals. Another batch of apples and oranges if you like. In any case, the point wasn't to debate the virtues of synthetics versus naturals, but to respond to the OP's concerns, the sequence as given being synthetic. Returning to it, I don't think I would want to try a coticule with a slurry off the Naniwa 12k for starters, just water. But this would be to correct a situation which shouldn't be there in the first place, if standing water loosening abrasive from the binder on the 12k is indeed the culprit.

 

[Alum of Potash]

Certainly does seem contradictory. I have found it to be true though.
I think it's because the synthetic particles don't break down, and they're shaped differently to begin with.

I only slurry the 1k C when I need more speed to cut, but after that I go water only and minimal water on top too.
I also rinse/clear the stone quite often. If I lap during that stage, I make sure I rinse the stone very very well before proceeding.
Otherwise, I don't seem to be able to get what I'm looking for off the stone.

My problem with the teeth was only linked to the 13k stone. Initially, when I thought it was loose abrasive, I was compulsively rinsing the stone thinking this would help. But the problem persisted and arrived early on. Using it dampened like I mentioned did the trick.

 

[Bayamontate]

I'm not a honemeister either but I have had great success maxing out coticule edges especially on Sheffield razors.

Using the Dilucot, the only two things I do different is I add more dilutions and use more water than the prescribed finger drop.

I have found that drying slurry to any degree sets the edge back and added water only laps can push the edge further if you have a nice touch.

 

[Gamma]

My problem with the teeth was only linked to the 13k stone. Initially, when I thought it was loose abrasive, I was compulsively rinsing the stone thinking this would help. But the problem persisted and arrived early on. Using it dampened like I mentioned did the trick.

I've found that slurry on anything over 3k inhibits progress and slurry on 1-3k is tolerable but needs to be cleared for the progress to get to max. I don't slurry the 3k anymore either - no need. But I do slurry the 1k when I have a lot of work to get through and I don't want to get another stone wet. I can always drop to the 800x, but if I'm already engaged on the 1k I usually want to stay there.

I have found that drying slurry to any degree sets the edge back.

Agreed. I killed a lot of edges not paying attention to that in the beginning.

 

[oakeshott]

Hi. I am trying to find a honing method that will give me the sharpness I need but a really soft smooth edge. I havent found it yet. Getting closer.

I use a full progression naniwa 1k-12k and the edge is sharp. I dont use pastes and usually strop on clean leather 80 times and then shave. Shaves well but the edge still a little hard on my face. I have coarse hair and delicate skin. The bevel is set correctly and it is sharp.

THis is the advice I need:

I was wondering if I used a Belgian yellow coticule with only water after the 12k would that give me a softer edge (i always keep reading that the coticules give butter soft edge) or would it make it duller and waste the work that was done. I know every coticule is different so it may be impossible to answer but Im asking the questions from those who might know. I have a beautiful one I paid about $400 for and dont use it.

I dont really understand coticules well and I know each one is different so some may improve it and some may harm it.

much appreciated any advice or thoughts.

best
Garrett

Garrett,
just wanted to add that I know another member with this exact progression. I can't comment on what a coti would do, but he added a translucent arkie at the finish and got exactly the result you are looking for. More smoothness, less harshness. Has reproduced this with at least three razors now.

 

[gary haywood]

I have tried 12k naniwa after a coticule and all though sharp I felt I ost smootness, 12k then coticule with water does and can bring back a more suttle edge , tried both...as of the moment I've been trying full set of naniwas for a change..followed with ti crox on flat balsa hone from classice edge with nice sharp and smooth not quite smooth like a natural stone but none the less exallant shaves with a nice but different feel, a feel I could easily settle on....the coticule or j nat just has a different feel but the naniwas crox is easy bullet proof honing set up that any one can learn and be well happy with ..

gary

 

[SliceOfLife]

What are you using before the 12k?

Coticule edges aren't as sharp as a 12k SS in my experience, but if you prefer the shave a coticule finish gives you, there's no reason not to finish on it. But you likely don't need the 12k at all, just replace it with the coticule on water. It's a rare coti that would be slower than a 12k SS.

Like has been already said, if you're looking for a stone to go to after a "finishing" stone, I don't think you can do better than finding the hardest arkansas you can get your hands on. But if you already have the coti, give it a try and see if it does what you want.

 

[gary haywood]

I use 1k C 5kn 8kn 12kn crox it works very well and very easy and leaves keen comfortable edge but there is no dout it doesn't leave the magical smoothness of a top coticule edge which isn't easy for some to achieve... there is no dout if I had to choose it would be coticule finish all the way ... I don't find much dfferance in keenness wheather its crox finish 12k finish or coticule they all shave well just coticule feels tops.... I do like the 12k n crox finish also .

the op is asking how he can soften the edge to his naniwas. he says he has a $400 coticule I sugest he try 30 laps on water and see what happens . it won't undo all his previous work...or he can try 10x strokes on crox ... he's just got to try these things and see what happens it won't do any harm..

 

[Garrett]

I restarted the progression fresh from the 1k thru the 12k and then did 30 laps on the coticule water only. It was so so much softer on my skin. Really close shave also. I am going to keep experimenting here.

QUestions: does crox make the edge keener and even sharper up to 30K equivalent or tone the edge down? I have read that it does both which makes no sense to me. thanks!

 

[Garrett]

Garrett,
just wanted to add that I know another member with this exact progression. I can't comment on what a coti would do, but he added a translucent arkie at the finish and got exactly the result you are looking for. More smoothness, less harshness. Has reproduced this with at least three razors now.

​I use the synthetic 1,3,5,8,10,12k naniwa SS progression. what is a translucscent arkie? I assume arkansas stone but not familiar with them. thanks.

 

[SliceOfLife]

It would depend on the chrox I assume. I bought a used strop on the Bay the other day and used it without realizing the linen was pasted. It heavily degraded a Thuri edge on me. From what I've heard, the finer (<0.5micron) pastes SHOULD make anything up to 30k sharper. The "toning down" you mention is probably speaking about the effect a pasted hanging strop will have of slightly rounding the bevel, which some people say makes the shave a bit smoother. In reality, that should be mostly separate from the sharpening, so it could be both (or neither) in certain situations.

Abrasives on a hanging strop tend to cut a bit deeper at the edge, and shallower as you move up to the bevel. This creates a slightly rounded bevel and apparently also tends to "even out" the surface of the edge viewed in profile, since they will remove material that a stone of similar grit would be more likely to just reduce. The effect this has in shaving will vary depending on the level of refinement of the edge. In my experience, evening that surface out at lower grits (<10k) is a boon, but at higher grits, it tends to actually work against you (not to say that having it even is bad, but doing this correction AFTER high grit honing doesn't achieve what maintaining the even edge the full time honing does), as it seems to remove the material without sufficiently reducing the depth of the bevel behind it (which becomes the surface of the edge) as much as you would like, so you're effectively (very slightly) dulling your blade.

The question I'd be interested is what a .5micron paste would do to the feel of a shave off a shapton 30k (~.5micron stone). Someone has to have tried this before.

 

[conroygc]

I also use the Naniwas to hone. 1k, 3k, 5k, 8k, 12k. I added a diamond pasted strop after the 12k and it makes a nice difference. The shave off the 12k is good, but the shave off the 12k then the diamond strop is excellent.

Do you already have a coticule? If so then try it out and report back to us.