High quality fluffy knot is too soft. Can someone fill me in on options?

[HDSledge]

I have a small brass brush handle that belonged to my late father. I installed a very nice knot but it is much too soft for my taste. My favorite brush for feel is the Rubberset in the pic. The knot is very stiff which I like a lot. What is a modern equivalent to the vintage knot in my Rubberset brush? What type of animal hair was installed in the Rubberset back in the day?

 

[muzichead]

Your Rubberset looks like its a boar knot that is very dense and can see why its very stiff. On the knot that you set in the other handle, did you set the knot all the way into the handle? If its not, you could set it lower which would give it more backbone and be stiffer. Other than that you'd need to buy a knot that has a much lower loft than what you bought.

 

[HDSledge]

Your Rubberset looks like its a boar knot that is very dense and can see why its very stiff. On the knot that you set in the other handle, did you set the knot all the way into the handle? If its not, you could set it lower which would give it more backbone and be stiffer. Other than that you'd need to buy a knot that has a much lower loft than what you bought.

There isn't much depth to the brass handle and it is a smaller diameter to boot. The knot is all the way to the bottom.
Do you have a recommendation on who has the coarsest/stiffest/densest knot available?

 

[VerbaVolant]

...I installed a very nice knot but it is much too soft for my taste...

The knot quality looks nice but it is set too high in the handle. Proper ratio is 1/2 or even 1/2.1 (knot size/loft).

 

[HDSledge]

The knot quality looks nice but it is set too high in the handle. Ratio is 1/2 or even 1/2.1 (knot size/loft).

I set it at the bottom. Unfortunately there isn't any room to go deeper. I wonder if I can slice off part of the base resin without ruining it?

 

[VerbaVolant]

No, you cannot do that. You might be able to remove the knot entirely and reuse it in a different handle. I would attempt that, if I were you, while understanding this might ruin the knot.

You can find short badger knots if you look around. When building a brush there is a bit of fiddling around.

If you decide to reknot with a badger, be aware that diameter of a fan is different from a bulb knot, since the glue bump always adds to the diameter of the plug. In my experience.

 

[VerbaVolant]

Depending on your skill, you might be able to make a sleeve and add it to the handle. That would be your part added to the handle from your father. Quite symbolic.
In this case you can reduce the loft and reuse the knot.

 

[VerbaVolant]

You only need a lathe and some time. Add a couple of beers and you get the idea of what I would call a nice evening.

 

[VerbaVolant]

Now that I think about it, you might be able to add the sleeve without having to remove the knot. Just slide it from top. You would need to put a shoulder on the sleeve so it can be secured on to the handle. Depending on the material used for the sleeve there are different ways to fasten it.
You take it from here...

 

[muzichead]

There isn't much depth to the brass handle and it is a smaller diameter to boot. The knot is all the way to the bottom.
Do you have a recommendation on who has the coarsest/stiffest/densest knot available?

If you can't go any deeper with the knot I would suggest putting say 4-6 o-rings at the base just above the end of the handle of the knot to see if that would stiffen it up any and if it does then look for a knot with that much less loft than the knot you purchased. Otherwise you might look into a short boar knot to go in it.

 

[HDSledge]

Thanks everyone. I managed to warm the base and gently pop out the knot since I didn't use much epoxy to set it. I recently bought a digital calliper and discovered the socket is 21.65 mm wide but the knot is 20 mm.

I like the idea of a sleeve but it may be easier to buy another knot if I can find one the right size. Maybe I will go for an extra dense one this time to boot.

EDIT: I noticed that as someone mentioned the glue within the knot hairs makes it bigger than the socket opening. I didn't notice this before. It results in the knot base not going all the way in even though the base is almost 2 mm smaller than the opening. How do I handle that?

 

[VerbaVolant]

It is always easier to by another, of anything.
Density of the knot might not be the final answer, in my opinion. A very dense knot could be very frustrating since it would not release lather easy. Knot diameter/loft ratio would be my bet.
Regardless, congrats on removing the knot without damage and enjoy your project.

 

[HDSledge]

I thought the knot was inserted to the bottom but the glue bulge prevented me from inserting the knot all the way. I tried something radical that seems to have worked. I won't know for sure until the next time I lather up though.

I cut the bottom off of a medicine bottle and inserted the brush to hold the hairs in place and tightly zip tied the knot just above the glue bulge. Then I dipped the base with the glue bulge into boiling water for 30 seconds or so. The glue bulge softened enough to allow me to twist the knot into the handle all the way to the bottom of the socket this time. It is in there tight now and I may not have to glue it in. It also feels a lot stiffer. An extra 2 mm of depth made a big difference.

I lost 5 or 6 hairs but the knot seems intact. I'll report back when I use it tomorrow/next day. Hopefully it won't shed like a mangy dog.

 

[VerbaVolant]

I believe your knot is damaged at this point.
In my experience 2mm (Edit) "of depth" makes no difference in this case. What makes a difference is 1/2 ratio.

 

[HDSledge]

I believe your knot is damaged at this point.
In my experience 2mm makes no difference in this case. What makes a difference is 1/2 ratio.

I guess I'll find out tomorrow.

 

[HDSledge]

UPDATE: I did a test run as VerbaVolant suggested and 3 or 4 hairs shed. Will go full tilt tonight before bed and see how it holds up. Definitely stiffer but I may add a brass ring/collar to give a bit more stiffness.

Here is a pic with the knot in all the way.

 

[pdieten]

If you want stiffness from a small knot why don’t you just get a boar or synthetic to put in it instead? Any badger knot is going to have more splay.

In the days of handles like yours it was a lot more common to have a knot to loft ratio closer to 2.5 for badgers. Lots of brushes even now have 20 or 22mm knots and >50mm lofts. I prefer mine that way, personally, but to each his own.

 

[HDSledge]

If you want stiffness from a small knot why don’t you just get a boar or synthetic to put in it instead? Any badger knot is going to have more splay.

In the days of handles like yours it was a lot more common to have a knot to loft ratio closer to 2.5 for badgers. Lots of brushes even now have 20 or 22mm knots and >50mm lofts. I prefer mine that way, personally, but to each his own.

I used it a few minutes ago and it is much stiffer but I think I will go with your suggestion eventually. I feel in love with the scrubbing action of the Rubberset brush and want to get as close to that as I can.

 

[Rudy Vey]

The problem is that the knot has way too much loft now. It would need to be set much deeper, but this is not possible with this handle. What you need is a knot with a much shorter loft. From the looks of the picture it seems that the ratio diameter to loft is over 2.5, what you would need is a ratio of 2-2.3. This would give you the backbone/scrub you want.

 

[VerbaVolant]

On a typical brush handle the knot is inserted so to respect the ratio mentioned several times above. Also consider the type of badger hair one uses. There is silvertip (3band) for example, and then finest (2band). They both behave differently and, in my opinion, they both have different size/loft ratio for a well designed brush. Some other grades in between, but these are most common. Another consideration to be given to the knot shape (flat, fan or bulb). All these knots have their characteristics that play a part in brush design.
There isn't a straight answer to your questions.
But then, I have little experience so let's hope others will pitch in.