HELP! Transitioning from DE Razor to Straight

[aseraf47]

All,

I wanted to dedicate a post to a few topics regarding making the jump from DE to straight razor shaving. I was initially intrigued by posts about less irritation and smoother shaves with a straight but so far it’s been significantly more effort and worse quality shaves.

I recently acquired a few straight razors (including one that has been honed by Larry at Whipped Dog), Norton 1K/4K/8k combination from Larry, chinese 12k, Coticule, and a strop. Upon first shave I noticed a few large differences that don’t appear to be normal from commentary on other posts:

1. The straight does not feel nearly as smooth as any DE that I own. I can shave but am left with serious stubble and irritation.
2. I have tried several tests (hanging hair, etc.) and have failed
3. I have researched different honing techniques and spent hours on the hones trying to set a bevel and get the razors “shave ready” but don’t think it’s there.

Can anyone point me in the right direction? So far I’ve read the following posts (and significantly more)

The Key - https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/threads/the-key.154799/

Newbie Honing Compendium - https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/threads/newbie-honing-compendium.545370/

Razor can't pass hanging hair test on coticules. - https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/threads/razor-cant-pass-hanging-hair-test-on-coticules.593158/

Thanks!

 

[Patrice]

Hi!
My best help so far has been this video

If you don't have a good finisher, you can strop on a newspaper before lather.
The ink acts as a smooth honing compound.
In any case I don't think I have ever been able to pass the hair test before stropping.
Stropping is the key.
But only if honing has been good enough before.
If you want to be ultra sure to start with an excellent straight razor, Ryan from Shave Armory is the one who has given me the most beautiful edges so far.
In any case, honing is easier than it looks but an excellent edge is a never ending process, I have never been totally happy with my own honed edges!
If you're looking for an easy shave, keep the safety razors, they are as good as the straights and much easier to deal with.
This page is also very useful and the whole blog extremely informative.
Just my two scents
Patrice

 

[JPO]

All,

I wanted to dedicate a post to a few topics regarding making the jump from DE to straight razor shaving. I was initially intrigued by posts about less irritation and smoother shaves with a straight but so far it’s been significantly more effort and worse quality shaves.

I recently acquired a few straight razors (including one that has been honed by Larry at Whipped Dog), Norton 1K/4K/8k combination from Larry, chinese 12k, Coticule, and a strop. Upon first shave I noticed a few large differences that don’t appear to be normal from commentary on other posts:

1. The straight does not feel nearly as smooth as any DE that I own. I can shave but am left with serious stubble and irritation.
2. I have tried several tests (hanging hair, etc.) and have failed
3. I have researched different honing techniques and spent hours on the hones trying to set a bevel and get the razors “shave ready” but don’t think it’s there.

Can anyone point me in the right direction? So far I’ve read the following posts (and significantly more)

The Key - https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/threads/the-key.154799/

Newbie Honing Compendium - https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/threads/newbie-honing-compendium.545370/

Razor can't pass hanging hair test on coticules. - https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/threads/razor-cant-pass-hanging-hair-test-on-coticules.593158/

Thanks!

"chinese 12k, Coticule, and a strop"
In the right hands and provided these are finishing grade stones, should give a good edge.
However, something like a 12k Naniwa Super Stone after the 8k might make things easier.
Coticule edges can be grate, but I couldn't see my self starting with such a stone.
What is the actual grit rating on this Chinese 12k? It might be coarser then the Norton 8k.
You could also try to use a pasted balsa progression after the 8k, or after the coticule to see if it helps. It is definitely a cheaper option if you are not completely committed to this yet.

 

[Brutus]

All,

I wanted to dedicate a post to a few topics regarding making the jump from DE to straight razor shaving. I was initially intrigued by posts about less irritation and smoother shaves with a straight but so far it’s been significantly more effort and worse quality shaves.

I recently acquired a few straight razors (including one that has been honed by Larry at Whipped Dog), Norton 1K/4K/8k combination from Larry, chinese 12k, Coticule, and a strop. Upon first shave I noticed a few large differences that don’t appear to be normal from commentary on other posts:

1. The straight does not feel nearly as smooth as any DE that I own. I can shave but am left with serious stubble and irritation.
2. I have tried several tests (hanging hair, etc.) and have failed
3. I have researched different honing techniques and spent hours on the hones trying to set a bevel and get the razors “shave ready” but don’t think it’s there.

Can anyone point me in the right direction? So far I’ve read the following posts (and significantly more)

The Key - https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/threads/the-key.154799/

Newbie Honing Compendium - https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/threads/newbie-honing-compendium.545370/

Razor can't pass hanging hair test on coticules. - https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/threads/razor-cant-pass-hanging-hair-test-on-coticules.593158/

Thanks!

Just some observations:

1. The obvious: I think your post would be better off in one of the two straight shaver forums on this site, as you are more likely to find people who have made the same transition as you.

2. The path to perfection in straight shaving is an arduous one and takes quite some patience and perseverance. When I did my transition, there were a few moments where I questioned whether it was worth it. In hindsight I can say that it was, but I can also say that the sometimes mentioned 100 shaves mean very little. This may be the number of shaves it takes to get reasonably proficient, but to come to the point where your straight shave becomes close to perfect may take three or five times as long.

3. Shaving prep becomes essential for a straight shave. It does not have to be a time-consuming ritual, but you need to soften your whiskers if you want a decent straight shave.

4. For straight shaving, the lubrication of the shaving soap is more important than for DE shaving. One of the best shaving soaps in this respect is Mitchells Woolf Fat (MWF) if you can get a good lather from MWF with your local water. (MWF likes soft water.)

5. Get an alum stick. Sooner or later you will need one.

6. For the perfect straight shave several things need to fall into place. Honing, Stropping and Shaving all need to be mastered and a lapse in either one may ruin an otherwise perfect shave. This makes learning to shave with a straight razor such a challenge. As mentioned before, perseverance is the key and if something does not work and you want to experiment try to change only one aspect at a time. It may give you a clearer indication whether the change had the desired effect.

7. Try to keep a professionally honed straight razor in reserve. This would allow you to establish a benchmark whether it is your technique or your usual razor(s) that needs improving.

8. In the beginning it may be acceptable to finish a shave with a safety razor, but after a few weeks you should strive to use (one of) your straight razor(s) as your only razor and you should use it on a daily basis, if you can.
With weekend straight shaving it will take you a long time (if ever) to become proficient.

9. Besides the “benchmark razor” it would be nice to have two rtegular straight razors in use. Don’t go overboard with razor shopping. Too many straight shaving novices buy too many straight razors in the beginning withoit knowing what to look for. Stick to the tried and tested, buy second-hand or if you prefer new razors, try Ralf Aust, who is a respected razor maker. Don’t buy too big razors. There are no extra points for the biggest razors. ⅝ razors were the most popular straight razors for a reason, as the combine lather carrying capability with maneuverability. (6/8 is a close second.)

10. Keep it simple. Don’t make your daily shave overly complicated. An over-complicated shave rarely makes for a better shave. After a while, expect your straight shave to to take about 2-2½ times as long as a DE shave.


And don‘t forget what I said about perseverance, if you hang on you will eventually get there…


Good luck.


B.

 

[silverlifter]

1. The straight does not feel nearly as smooth as any DE that I own. I can shave but am left with serious stubble and irritation.

Your first dozen or so shaves are about learning to use the blade, not necessarily about removing all your stubble, that will come in time. Nevertheless, the blade should not tug or feel ragged on your skin. See below.

2. I have tried several tests (hanging hair, etc.) and have failed

The only real test is the shave, but if your blade is not passing basic heuristics, like HHT or treetopping, it may not be sharp enough. If it feels off, then it is not. You want a reference edge as a newbie, to rule out one of the many variables.

3. I have researched different honing techniques and spent hours on the hones trying to set a bevel and get the razors “shave ready” but don’t think it’s there.

Trying to learn how to hone and shave at the same time is like trying to tie your shoelaces on a unicycle; some people can do it, but it is compounding the difficulty. Get a reference edge from someone here, learn to shave with that, and practice honing on a beater while you do.

Good luck! It's a lot of fun learning a new skill, and extremely satisfying when you make progress.

 

[Scrubby]

A lot of long post with well meant advice. I started SR shaving using a WW2 Sr from a distant family member - took me decades to build up the courage to use it. At the end, when I started i just went to the stones every time (and then 100-150 laps on the hanging strop) until there was no improvement. Learning to shave while learning to sharpen and stop is a challenge, but the proof is in the shave, no need to tinker around with hht and such.
Also realistic expectation management helped me. Start with cheeks wtg, finish the rest with DE. Continue when you get the razor sharper with the neck wtg. You will get better - move on to xtg. Still finish with the DE, once you can manage atg on the neck and finally the coupe de maître (atg on the upper lip) you will have mastered sr shaving as well as honing/stropping. Do not be discouraged when you have some stubble left, your technique will improve slowly (or faster when you are a better learner than me). After a while (might take 3 month or up to a year) you will also have bbs results on the chin and other tough spots.

Smooth shave wtg/xtg and still drawing blood atg?-> focus on a sharper razor.

Your 12k cnat (probably an adae) is able to provide an edge that feels like it can differentiate between hair and skin - no need to finish on a much harsher 12k naniwa. Just use the flattened cnat under running water until your blade feels like it sticks to the stone and you are good to go.

There are no shortcuts, but you are on a remarkable and satisfying journey. Enjoy the trip and avoid ton focus only on the finish line.

Irritation? Just shave on the odd days until you get the hang of it. Daily shaving irritated a lot more than shaving every other day

This turned out longer than i expected. Hope it helps you, but as always ymmv

 

[Brutus]

Just some observations:

1. The obvious: I think your post would be better off in one of the two straight shaver forums on this site, as you are more likely to find people who have made the same transition as you.

I guess some kind soul (with the right forum privileges) did just that…

 

[Chef455]

I'll play the Devils advocate.

1st- my utmost respect for all the SR shavers on the forums.

2nd- don't bother. I have, and will continue to dabble, but it seems to be A LOT of work. And IMHO a better result is questionable.

If you do continue to pursue it you have a great pool of knowledge and some genuinely kind and helpful members to draw knowledge from.

Best of luck!!!

 

[alex1921]

You need to find one method and follow it until you succeed otherwise you will be pulled into hundred different directions.
Be it synthetic or films or pastes. Whatever.


Shavearmory has some nice razors but most are extremely overpriced. He currently has 2 for a good price and since they come honed it might be a good option.
Griffith sends nicely honed razors as well and his prices are better.

 

[Seelector]

Lots of good advice here already. The absolute most important thing when starting out is a proper shave-ready edge.

You said that you had serious stubble and irritation after your first SR shave. The stubble is normal and expected for a beginner, the irritation not so much. Any time I get irritation it’s because of a problem with my edge, usually one or more micro chips. So I’d say your edge needs work. There are plenty of people here who can help you out. If you’re in Canada and willing to pay shipping both ways I can set the bevel and hone it for you.

It took me 8 or 10 SR shaves for it to feel like an actual shave, and plenty more for it to feel like a good shave.

Stick with WTG and dabble with XTG for the first few shaves, focussing on how you have to hold the razor to reach everywhere on your face and neck. You might have to map your beard again to really see what direction your hair grows. I did and it was a big help. Skin stretching is more important with a straight than a DE, so make sure you’re doing that.

Before too long, 20ish shaves maybe, everything clicks and comes together. Then it just keeps getting better and better.

Stick with it and you’ll get there.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Start with a truly shave ready razor. Learn to shave, first, before you try to hone your own razor. Trust me, it is much less confusing and misleading. Test your razor for sharpness with this method. Results do not prove shave readiness, only indicate it.

When you are ready to start honing, if you want to start getting good edges in days instead of months or years, and you want to spend $200 instead of $2k for your toolset, then pick ONE honer to be your sensei. Use EXACTLY the same tools and techniques that he uses, in every detail. Do not add or omit ANYTHING, no matter how inconsequential it is or how inconvenient it might be. Absolutely do not mix and match techniques from different honers or honing styles. Do it perfectly and precisely the same as your chosen guru. Keep doing it that way until you are getting the same results that he gets. When you are doing that consistently, only then should you try other stuff. This will seriously shorten the time it takes to begin getting good shaves from your self honed razors, and increases the ease of doing so and reduces the cost of doing so.

 

[Doc Dan]

I would only add these:

When you make your shaving stroke, only lift the spine from your skin about 1 spine width (maybe 1.5 at the most). Shallow shaves better. That is one reason for a poor shave and a lot of stubble. Technique is everything.

You need a soap with good residual slickness (still slick on your face even after shaving). Sure, you can shave without this, but it will make a huge difference. As @Brutus said above, Mitchell's Wool Fat is hard to beat. I have zero issues in hard water that also has rust in it (old pipes). However, La Toja and Ariana and Evans both work really well. I use all three, but MWF the most (my favorite).

When you get better, your shaving times will come down. Except for the aftershave care of the razor, I can lather and shave as fast with a straight as I can my DE, most of the time.

Don't worry about holding that handle in a special way. I learned to just hold my razor by the tang/shank in a pinch grip with the handling sticking straight out instead of up or down....kind of like holding a kamisori. It works better for me, personally. YMMV. Find what works for you.

If a razor will not cut a falling hair or tree top hairs on your arm, it is not sharp enough. Keep that in mind.

 

[JoeScho]

If you do continue to pursue it you have a great pool of knowledge and some genuinely kind and helpful members to draw knowledge from.

Amen to that 3X over.

I'm ok with the shaving part, its the honing I'm learning. As @silverlifter said its being at least OK at everything at once that makes you have some success. I just received a french point - 1st stroke - 1st shave and I have a 1/2 inch slice on my cheek. I look like Sigfried form Get Smart now.

 

[Doc Dan]

I had at least 20 shaves in before I nicked myself, maybe more. In over 200 shaves I've cut myself once and nicked myself slightly about 4 times. Only one of those needed a styptic briefly. I've cut myself far more times with a DE "Safety" razor, more than I can count.

 

[SliceOfLife]

I learned on a straight and by the time I tried a DE; they felt incredibly dull... I got a big honkin nose and planned to use a DE for my upper lip as straights have to take awkward angles to get there but gave up that plan almost immediately as even the "too sharp" DE blades people recommended felt like a subpar finish.

I'm saying that to get you past the "maybe DE's are sharper" question. They aren't. Not even close.


Four things immediately spring to mind if you're having issues moving from DE to Straight.


1. Angles. While DE's probably care about the angles somewhat... with straights they are vitally important. There is no safety bar holding the hair up. The hair holds up (or not) solely based on the natural angle it takes coming out of your follicle. To get smooth you really need at least a cross grain (perpendicular to direction of hair growth) pass; and most people prefer against the grain (opposite growth direction) pass. This translates to multiple passes with the razor (as you typically won't start with an against the grain pass). Also this has a bit of a learning curve and goes fairly slow at first because beard hair kind of grows in every which way and you have to figure out which direction is actually XTG or ATG at any given part of your face and neck.

2. Skin stretching. Again, DE users probably do this... but with straights its 1000x more important... because again, there is no metal bar on the tool that does it for you.

3. Stropping. You need to strop a straight well to get a good shave. I'd say bad stropping is probably 99% of most new shavers problems.

4. Angle (again). If your razor is really sharp; it can lay flat on your face and be held with just enough pressure to keep the bevel in contact with your face... everywhere your face lets you (example of where this may be a problem: under a big honkin nose). Don't press it against your face. As straight razor finishers get duller; the way to keep them from just skipping over hair is to raise the spine and basically start to use your face to trap the hair against the edge... this is obviously not ideal; but it may be necessary if the razor isn't sharp enough. This is why I always felt "Learn to shave with an 8k!" advice to be dumb. It teaches you bad technique in order to shave with a dull razor... technique that will cause problems when you switch to a sharp one.


Coticules can give a pretty easy shaving edge; but depending on the coticule... you may not get the closeness a finer finisher can give.

Some guys have good success with CNats. I did not... They were inferior to even subpar coticules in finish without any of the perks Cotis have.

Of what you've got... if you're honing; I'd stick to touchups on the coticule and just accept that the closeness may be a bit below what you expected. Once you're comfortable shaving if you decide to stick with a straight... then look at adding a better finisher (quality Jnat, Thuri) or balsa strop + abrasive powder... though you may find you miss the coticule "feel" of the shave when you switch.

I will say this... If you want to see what kind of closeness a Straight finish can provide sooner; rather than later, The ultra-polished balsa+ 0.1 micron powder finish will probably best replicate the cutting action/feel you're used to from DE blades (they're ultra-polished/finished with a coating that makes them almost perfectly smooth on the bevels)... but keep in mind it'll be that kind of bevel polish @ 11-19 degrees instead of the 22-26ish degrees of a DE blade; and give it some respect.

 

[smorgana]

I've only been SR shaving since about oct 2022, I had done a transition from electric to double edge, and after about a year or so of that just switched to SR. With SR I always had a better shave than I ever had before, even from the start, with less irritation. (meaning the shave started off better and continued to get better and better) As I got more shaves under my belt, technique improved to the point of no irritation and even better shaves. At this point if I ever feel irritation, I take it to mean (usually) the blade needs some touch up -- which comes around every month and a half to 2 months for me. (and at this point what I mean by irritation is, if after applying after shave lotion, there is any stinging at all-- something is not right)
I think with SR both blade condition and technique are about equal considerations in getting a good shave (they both effect each other)

If you want to get in to SR shaving, and you're starting with a blade that's been honed by someone who knows what they're doing, and you're not getting satisfactory shaves, I'd say just give yourself some more time for the technique to click in.

What I like at this point about SR shaving is that If I take my time and take a couple passes I get a nice close shave, If I'm in a hurry, one pass gives me a great shave anyway, and is faster than I could with a DE, since the blade is simply longer - so less strokes.

 

[Frank Shaves]

First, congrats on your decision to use a straight and welcome to the straight razor forum!

Can you post photo(s) of your straight razors?

I would reach out to Alfredo (@Doc226) and have him hone one or two of your better razors. Alfredo is an expert honer and you need to start with an excellent edge as a benchmark.

It does take time to learn to use a straight razor. Use light pressure and pay attention to skin stretching. Watch some of Gary Haywood's (@gary haywood) videos on YouTube - you will definitely learn a few things.

And keep posting your results and ask questions.

 

[aseraf47]

All, thank you very much for the detailed responses. After reading your replies and doing some additional research I believe the razor I have been using is not quite keen enough / shave ready to have a successful shave in the first place. A few additional follow up questions for you all:

1. It was mentioned finding a “sensei” to learn from and send my razors to. This will eliminate the sharpness variable. Does anyone have additional suggestions on who would be able to assist?

2. When honing, I have read a lot about pressure and have seen conflicting advice with “weight of the blade”, “some pressure”, “lots of pressure”, etc. is there a good rule of thumb in terms of lbs of force applied when setting bevel, finishing, and stropping?

3. I believe purchasing a practice honing razor may be a good idea once I get mine sent out (or practicing on mine and getting one that is shave ready). Any additional suggestions on shops that are known for truly shave ready razors?

Thanks again!

 

[rbscebu]

@aseraf47, knowing your location would help.

 

[aseraf47]

@aseraf47, knowing your location would help.

I’m in Atlanta, GA