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Heads Up: Taylors & Company 10mm 1911

Well, finally decided to do the proposed checkering guide. I grabbed my tubing micrometer and pulled the pistol out of my range bag to measure the thickness of the front strap. Before I could even slip the anvil of the mic in the mag well. . .

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OUCH!! I hadn't realized that the front strap was grooved. I briefly considered doing a 'weld-up', then came to my senses and dropped the idea of checkering. This isn't the only 1911 I own, so I will probably pick another to file on. Or not.

I don't own a Tisas, so may source one just to use as a learning platform for metal checkering. I'll just have to be careful to get one with a smooth front strap or I could find myself welding the grooves up and re-contouring the front strap with a file. I can pull that off, but it's a little more investment in time and labor than I want to expend, especially just to get ready to checker.
I haven't even handled a Tisas. However, so many people have praised these pistols that I want to get my hands on one, measure a lot of it, and find out if they really are as good as some folks think they are.

In my opinion, the Armscor guns are well made and reliable, at least the ones I own and others my friends own. That being said, I have built two BBQ guns from them and it took a ridiculous amount of hand work to get them ready to polish and blue. The sides of the slides weren't flat and neither were the sides of the frames. Once the parkerizing was removed, grinding marks and scratches were in abundance on the frames. Please don't take this as a complaint or criticism. As received, these guns are strong, well fitted, accurate, and reliable. Building 1911 pistols is not a "slap together and ship" enterprise. They usually require some degree of hand fitting. This is why I say that they are excellent values, especially for someone getting their first 1911. Just be reasonable and don't expect a Wilson, Nighthawk, or Ed Brown.

I will make a serious effort to hit the range today or tomorrow to test the 40 S&W barrel and attendant recoil spring/guide rod assembly (it is in the pistol at the moment).

Bill.
 

shoelessjoe

"I took out a Chihuahua!"
I will make a serious effort to hit the range today or tomorrow to test the 40 S&W barrel and attendant recoil spring/guide rod assembly (it is in the pistol at the moment).
I finally got back around to the Taylor's & ordered a (15#) 40 recoil spring, barrel link & pin, a square-bottom FPS & a checkered/arched MSH. Not wanting to spend $100+ for a clean, early-war milled short trigger, I'll probably just end up going with a stamped USGI 1911A1 or perhaps a Harrison Design shorty. I have yet to locate (blued) 10mm or 40S&W Mec-gar, Checkmate or Metalform mags in stock! Next time I'm at the club, I'll see how the Kimber factory 10mm mags, which run flawlessly in the EC2, fare in the Taylor. Following your lead, I removed the flared magwell & lastly, I am going to install a green FO tube in the front sight.

Looking forward to reading the results of your TT 40 S&W range report!
 
I finally got back around to the Taylor's & ordered a (15#) 40 recoil spring, barrel link & pin, a square-bottom FPS & a checkered/arched MSH. Not wanting to spend $100+ for a clean, early-war milled short trigger, I'll probably just end up going with a stamped USGI 1911A1 or perhaps a Harrison Design shorty. I have yet to locate (blued) 10mm or 40S&W Mec-gar, Checkmate or Metalform mags in stock! Next time I'm at the club, I'll see how the Kimber factory 10mm mags, which run flawlessly in the EC2, fare in the Taylor. Following your lead, I removed the flared magwell & lastly, I am going to install a green FO tube in the front sight.

Looking forward to reading the results of your TT 40 S&W range report!
If you need an .060 chunk of green FO, pm me your address and I'll mail a piece to you. I bought some from Dawson Precision (they use .040 dia FO in their sights, but they sell .060 FO). I'll keep an eye out for blued mags. Bill.
 
I took the 10/40 along with one of my BBQ 45s to the range this afternoon. The 45 came along because I had replaced the front sight and wanted to check the regulation.

All testing was done at 15 yards. Any further and my lack of skill would have made any accuracy testing a waste of time.

The 10/40 first:
I used new MecGar 40 S&W magazines. As the barrel headspaced correctly, I did not run a chamber reamer in it.
I had one or two "jams" per magazine, where the barrel lacked about .1" returning to battery. The gun locked up hard with the new barrel (after a little fitting), but had a sort of bump as it dropped in to battery on an empty chamber. I knew of this before leaving the house, so had a suspicion that it might balk when returning to battery. I ran a box of shells through it so I would have witness marks if there were any feeding issues.
You may recall that I had reduced extractor pressure in this gun to about 24 ounces (from a first time out set pressure of 35 ounces on a new Wilson extractor I had fit). The original extractor exerted no measurable or noticeable pressure on the case head (this was a clue and I missed it).
With the tight lockup, the gun was very accurate, as one would expect. I was mildly surprised that the recoil was noticeably sharper than a 45. To make sure it wasn't my imagination, I fired both pistols side by side, two rounds of 40, then switch guns and two rounds of 45. It wasn't my imagination. Recoil seemed to be about the same with both guns, but the recoil pulse was shorter with the 40 S&W, making the 45 feel more like a push than a slap.

The 45 BBQ gun.

The sights were regulated for 230 grain hardball at 25 yards. When I fired the 200 grain Montana Gold bullets through it, the impact was lower, a phenomenon I had noticed with 180 grain bullets. The lighter the bullet, the lower the point of impact with this pistol.
This pistol sports a BarSto hard fit barrel that I finished reamed with a tight chamber reamer. The Montana Gold bullets measure .001 to .0017 larger than most of the other bullets I have laying around here. My Springfield LongSlide has a "big" barrel and shoots the MG bullets wonderfully, but smaller bullets don't do so well.
I did get the occasional failure to return to battery with the MG loaded rounds. I double checked them when I got home and the cartridges were anywhere from .001 to .002 larger than other ammunition I have. A match barrel with a tight chamber. No surprise that the gun will occasionally balk with MG bullets. It runs everything else without a hitch. I did clean and ball gauge the chamber when I got home and it is in SAAMI spec, but just barely. It shoots so well with other bullets that I am going to leave it as it is and just feed it what it likes.

Magazines.

I didn't think about this till I got home, but I should have loaded some of the 40 S&W up in 10mm and 45 acp magazines and tried them to see how they would run. I will try and remember to do this next time around.

The KCI magazines that came with the 10mm originally functioned poorly in the 10 and and provided similar peformance today in the BBQ gun. They are 45 ACP mags and I am not happy with them. I will give them one more turn at the range with a different pistol and if they function as poorly has they did today, I will arrange a funeral for them.

Final changes;

I have again lightened the extractor pressure on the 10/40. I am beginning to suspect that the breech face may be undersize (the clue I originally missed). If I can figure out a way to do it, I will measure it and let you gentlemen know what I have found.
I have now changed the 14lb recoil spring I had installed for the 40 S&W cartridge for an 18lb spring. This is nothing more than a "see if it works" way to increase slide velocity when returning to battery. Hopefully, lightening the extractor (yet again) and the heavier recoil spring will solve the 'stickiness'.
The last note is that bump I mentioned. When I disassembled the pistol, I carefully inspected it for witness marks. Low and behold, I found where the slide stop pin had been riding the lower barrel lugs hard when returning to battery. That is the bump I had felt. Taking my time, I relieved this area with a file and re contoured the ramps to provide for a more gradual lockup instead of just slamming in to place. When I cycle the slide, the bump is no longer in evidence, but only a trip to the range can make the final call.

Again, sorry for such a long post, but you guys seem to be interested in my ineptitude and I'm fool enough to share it.:001_smile

Bill.
 

shoelessjoe

"I took out a Chihuahua!"
Amazing post, @Mhinagoya - thank you!

I certainly do appreciate the green FO offer ... I still have a .60 green stick leftover from an earlier FO swap.

I concur with your KCI magazine(s) assessment! They are absolutely hideous - in fact, both followers tilted & jammed when I attempted to load (correct) 45 ACP rounds into the mags. Other folks seem to have no issues with them. Perhaps those KCIs are the real reason behind my Taylor's $379 price tag ;)

There are varying opinions regarding the correct 1911/40 recoil spring ... ranging from 14-to-18#s & everything in between. We'll see if the 15#-er will do the job on the Taylor.

Akin to the pistol's TIGHT slide/frame marriage, the 40 RI barrel does mate up with the slide, but after reading your post, I have to wonder if some light lug tweaking might be in order? Then again, perhaps all that is required is 500 rounds downrange & then if necessary, a reassessment.

BTW, once they're up & running, we'll have to get a couple of these to expedite barrel swaps @ the range :laugh:
 
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Amazing post, @Mhinagoya - thank you!

I certainly do appreciate the green FO offer ... I still have a .60 green stick leftover from an earlier FO swap.

I concur with your KCI magazine(s) assessment! They are absolutely hideous - in fact, both followers tilted & jammed when I attempted to load (correct) 45 ACP rounds into the mags. Other folks seem to have no issues with them. Perhaps those KCIs are the real reason behind my Taylor's $379 price tag ;)

There are varying opinions regarding the correct 1911/40 recoil spring ... ranging from 14-to-18#s & everything in between. We'll see if the 15#-er will do the job on the Taylor.

Akin to the pistol's TIGHT slide/frame marriage, the 40 RI barrel does mate up with the slide, but after reading your post, I have to wonder if some light lug tweaking might be in order? Then again, perhaps all that is required is 500 rounds downrange & then if necessary, a reassessment.

BTW, once they're up & running, we'll have to get a couple of these to expedite barrel swaps @ the range :laugh:
To solve the 'bump' just before going in to battery:

SJ.jpg


Bill.
 

shoelessjoe

"I took out a Chihuahua!"
@Mhinagoya ... having achieved an excellent barrrel-to-slide fit, I then had to relieve both, the convex & the (above, circled) concave lower lug radii. Figured that the 40 barrel to slide stop fit was good to go after addressing the convex radii, but upon reassembly discovered that when in battery, the slide remained approx. 1/16" proud of the receiver. Having used a #3 link, my first thought was that perhaps a #4 or #5 link was needed, but as I perused archived old-head 1911 Forum threads, the consensus was that longer links sometimes circumvented the real issue - i.e., oversized lower lugs. Not in possession of a barrel lug cutter, I pulled dimensions off the factory 10mm barrel, removed the 40's link & then set it on protruding pins outside of each lug. Didn't even need to use the slide stop to 'see' where the concave radius needed to be be altered. Grabbed some 240 grit wet/dry, the backside of a 3/16" drill bit & slowly relieved & measured, relieved & measured... until the slide stop's pin orbited unobstructed, the thumb safety engaged properly & slide returned to complete battery, flush to the receiver. Twas a MacGyer (Rube Goldberg! 😁) fix, but in the end I was happy with the 40's fit/lock-up, which is quite akin to the factory 10mm barrel. Of course, it'll take a trip to the range to determine if that happiness was premature ... or not.

I also installed an EGW ached MSH, which slipped snuggly (a testament to both, Armscor & EGW) into place, flush to the receiver bottom and an oversized flat bottom FPS, which took no small amount of time to properly alter. I am thinking that the #15 (40 s&w) recoil spring might just work with that flat bottom FPS. I will eventually replace the factory extractor with a Wilson, but having passed the live round shake test, I'll that leave that alone for the time being.
 
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@Mhinagoya ... having achieved an excellent barrrel-to-slide fit, I then had to relieve both, the convex & the (above, circled) concave lower lug radii. Figured that the 40 barrel to slide stop fit was good to go after addressing the convex radii, but upon reassembly discovered that when in battery, the slide remained approx. 1/16" proud of the receiver. Having used a #3 link, my first thought was that perhaps a #4 or #5 link was needed, but as I perused archived old-head 1911 Forum threads, the consensus was that longer links sometimes circumvented the real issue - i.e., oversized lower lugs. Not in possession of a barrel lug cutter, I pulled dimensions off the factory 10mm barrel, removed the 40's link & then set it on protruding pins outside of each lug. Didn't even need to use the slide stop to 'see' where the concave radius needed to be be altered. Grabbed some 240 grit wet/dry, the backside of a 3/16" drill bit & slowly relieved & measured, relieved & measured... until the slide stop's pin orbited unobstructed, the thumb safety engaged properly & slide returned to complete battery, flush to the receiver. Twas a MacGyer (Rube Goldberg! 😁) fix, but in the end I was happy with the 40's fit/lock-up, which is quite akin to the factory 10mm barrel. Of course, it'll take a trip to the range to determine if that happiness was premature ... or not.

I also installed an EGW ached MSH, which slipped snuggly (a testament to both, Armscor & EGW) into place, flush to the receiver bottom and an oversized flat bottom FPS, which took no small amount of time to properly alter. I am thinking that the #15 (40 s&w) recoil spring might just work with that flat bottom FPS. I will eventually replace the factory extractor with a Wilson, but having passed the live round shake test, I'll that leave that alone for the time being.
I am impressed!

I have a lug cutter (would have mailed it to you had you asked) and I cringe every time I use it. It is so easy to over cut a lug, and you did it with a drill bit and sandpaper!! Kudos Sir. I too used a #3 link and the pin didn't bind. The lockup was just so tight that I only had two choices. 1. Relieve and re-contour the ramp, or 2. Grab my upper lug file and shove the barrel a few thou further in to the slide. I chose to leave the upper lugs alone.

Every 1911 I own has something from EGW in or on it. They make GOOD stuff.

I stuck an 18# spring in mine and if it runs ok, will probably leave it there for a few hundred rounds before backing down. I put together a recoil spring tuning kit a few years back and have springs from 7# to 24#. If the gun doesn't run with the 18# spring, I will swap springs till it does run.

I intend to get back to the range on Monday.

Good luck my Friend.

Bill.
 

shoelessjoe

"I took out a Chihuahua!"
@Mhinagoya - thank you, but as they say, The proof is in the pudding ... which is to say that I don't even know if the doggone thing is going to run!?? 😆

But, I was encouraged yesterday ... the 15#/40 Wolff recoil spring arrived & was immediately installed on the Taylor guide rod - I have to wonder, & especially in regards to the 10mm spring, how many RI & Taylor bull barreled 1911 owners have been killed, maimed or blinded when attempting to load the 10mm spring onto the guide rod?? ;)

Anyways, I grabbed a Kimber (10mm) magazine, loaded it up with some dummy 40s & when slingshotted, the Taylor balked on the first round (sound familiar?), but successfully fed/extracted the remaining rounds - the slide would not lock back on the empty Kimber. I did not cycle 10mms w/the Kimber mag because, one, I don't have any dummys & secondly, I did not want to hassle with attempting to load that 10mm spring onto the guide rod ... I do see a second Armscor or better yet, a Dawson Precision guide rod in my immediate future!

I also ordered a Wolff Service Pak for my CMP M1911-A1 & after swapping out its' springs, it dawned on me to try the USGI 45 magazine on the Taylor ... loaded the dummy 40s & not only did they feed/extract flawlessly, but the slide locked back on the empty USGI mag. I'm thinking that 10 & 40 Check-Mate, Mec-Gar or Metalform mags will do the trick.
 
Theore
@Mhinagoya - thank you, but as they say, The proof is in the pudding ... which is to say that I don't even know if the doggone thing is going to run!?? 😆

But, I was encouraged yesterday ... the 15#/40 Wolff recoil spring arrived & was immediately installed on the Taylor guide rod - I have to wonder, & especially in regards to the 10mm spring, how many RI & Taylor bull barreled 1911 owners have been killed, maimed or blinded when attempting to load the 10mm spring onto the guide rod?? ;)

Anyways, I grabbed a Kimber (10mm) magazine, loaded it up with some dummy 40s & when slingshotted, the Taylor balked on the first round (sound familiar?), but successfully fed/extracted the remaining rounds - the slide would not lock back on the empty Kimber. I did not cycle 10mms w/the Kimber mag because, one, I don't have any dummys & secondly, I did not want to hassle with attempting to load that 10mm spring onto the guide rod ... I do see a second Armscor or better yet, a Dawson Precision guide rod in my immediate future!

I also ordered a Wolff Service Pak for my CMP M1911-A1 & after swapping out its' springs, it dawned on me to try the USGI 45 magazine on the Taylor ... loaded the dummy 40s & not only did they feed/extract flawlessly, but the slide locked back on the empty USGI mag. I'm thinking that 10 & 40 Check-Mate, Mec-Gar or Metalform mags will do The
I am planning on hitting the range tomorrow and will be testing 40, 10, and 45 magazines with the 40 S&W barrel setup. I'll report back on how it went.

Something you said a while back got my attention, and I had ordered a new guide rod and plug before I even ordered the barrel. So, I have guide rod, plug, and recoil spring setups for both calibers.
I can't imagine trying to stuff that plug down over a 24# spring at a shooting range. Actually, I wouldn't attempt it. As you noted, it's dangerous. MUCH easier in a vise and it can be done by setting the rod upright on a bench, dropping the spring on it, then using a small crescent wrench (opened just enough to slip on the plug but not past the flange) for a handle to push the plug down. Even at that, it's still dangerous.

I'll let you know how my gun runs with the hodgepodge of magazines I have in my range bag.

Bill.
 
Ok Gents, I just got home from the range.

I tried 48 S&W mags from MecGar, 10mm by MetalForm, 45 ACP Colt with a hybrid Tripp follower, and a 45 ACP Wilson. Except for the Colt, all ran virtually the same with the 10mm stainless MecGar having what seemed to be a slight edge, but that is an impression. I have no empirical evidence to support it. For some reason, the gun simply didn't like the Colt magazine.
It still fails to go in to battery occasionally but oddly, only once per magazine and not always the same round in sequence. This leads me to believe that I need to re-visit the breech face and will do so this week. The BBQ gun (45 ACP) ran flawlessly with ACT magazines and 230 grain hardball. So, I have ordered more ACT magazines. I simply cannot bring myself to chance ruining a hard fit BarSto barrel by trying to open the chamber up a tiny bit. Instead, I'll just run the mags and ammo the gun prefers.

Just a little more work on the 10/40 and it should be good to go.

A couple of random things and I'll shut up. I switched the recoil spring from the 14# I had originally installed to an 18#. The ejection pattern tightened up considerably and while still a bit far away, is acceptable. I might swap the 18 out for a 20, just to see how it runs. The gun is still locking up a bit tight, but I'm not going to mess with it for a while and see if it smooths out as the parts get to know each other. It is very accurate and I'm just not of a mind to 'fix' that part yet. I am also going to run a batch of reloads through a Lee factory crimp die and try them.

Stay tuned. We are nearing the finish line but we aren't there yet.

Bill.
 

shoelessjoe

"I took out a Chihuahua!"
@Mhinagoya … thank you for pathfinding & the time spent putting your findings to print!

For a moment, you had me scratching my head with your S&W 48 reference … I thought, what relation does a 22 WMR revolver have with a 10/40 1911??😆

So, with 40 S&W rounds you liked the 10mm (Mec-Gar or Metalform?) over the 40 (Mec-Gar) magazine? I believe it’s Tripp who lists their 10mm mags as ‘40/10s’ … I was wondering if folks (successfully) ran 40 rounds in 10mm magazines?

I’d have thought that your 40 M-G mags would have yielded the best results…

As tight as those Taylors are, I am thinking that it may take a few-hundred rounds before they begin to settle in.

I am going to order a single stainless 40 & one stainless 10mm M-G or Metalform mag before attempting to dial-in the Taylor … I cannot find blued (in-stock) mags to save my life!
 
@Mhinagoya … thank you for pathfinding & the time spent putting your findings to print!

For a moment, you had me scratching my head with your S&W 48 reference … I thought, what relation does a 22 WMR revolver have with a 10/40 1911??😆

So, with 40 S&W rounds you liked the 10mm (Mec-Gar or Metalform?) over the 40 (Mec-Gar) magazine? I believe it’s Tripp who lists their 10mm mags as ‘40/10s’ … I was wondering if folks (successfully) ran 40 rounds in 10mm magazines?

I’d have thought that your 40 M-G mags would have yielded the best results…

As tight as those Taylors are, I am thinking that it may take a few-hundred rounds before they begin to settle in.

I am going to order a single stainless 40 & one stainless 10mm M-G or Metalform mag before attempting to dial-in the Taylor … I cannot find blued (in-stock) mags to save my life!
Sorry about the typo. My 10mm mags are stainless Metalform. My 40 S&W mags are Mec-Gar.

My double stack runs 22 TCM, 38 Super Comp, 9mm, and 9X23, all in the same magazines.

I think I finally found a tight spot in the breech face and I am in the process of opening it up a few thousands. It won't take much. There is actually considerably more latitude in the case head to breech face fit than most would believe. I put the 10mm barrel and guide rod assembly back in the gun and will run a box of ammo through it so I can look for witness marks. One thing I forgot to mention is that the witness marks I had on the outside, top of the slide behind the ejection port are no more. Extractor tuning solved that issue.

Answered your PM on parts sourcing.

Bill.
 
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