Gillette Single Rings with British Patent Numbers
- Thread starter GBinOZ
- Start date
Nice examples, gents.
Sorry to be late... I'm getting no notifications when new posts are, well, posted...
Sorry to be late... I'm getting no notifications when new posts are, well, posted...
Adam ~
Other than my set having two rivets over the button, and no feet, it is the same set....
Possibly in the same manner as Gillette's cases, they evolved from more rivets to less....
I will take pictures of the case bottom on my set this weekend and post them. Are there
any others, or close-ups, you would wish me to take for you?
My thoughts are that these cases were made either by the alleged French Gillette Company,
or possibly an English export company (or Gillette itself???) It's a pity that there is no razor
in the set that you found, as this would help to support my thoughts....
Thank you very much for this information, it is greatly appreciated.
Cheers,
Kevin
Other than my set having two rivets over the button, and no feet, it is the same set....
Possibly in the same manner as Gillette's cases, they evolved from more rivets to less....
I will take pictures of the case bottom on my set this weekend and post them. Are there
any others, or close-ups, you would wish me to take for you?
My thoughts are that these cases were made either by the alleged French Gillette Company,
or possibly an English export company (or Gillette itself???) It's a pity that there is no razor
in the set that you found, as this would help to support my thoughts....
Thank you very much for this information, it is greatly appreciated.
Cheers,
Kevin
Here is a photo of the case bottom.
Cheers,
Kevin
While this "Standard Set" style case is not a Combination Set, it is very similar..... enough so to make me believe that it was manufactured by the same maker as the sets being discussed. I now am, almost 100%, positive that these cases were made in the U.K., but am uncertain if BY or FOR Gillette.
I found this one on E-Bay U.K.
Cheers,
Kevin
I found this one on E-Bay U.K.
Cheers,
Kevin
R
romsitsa
Digged through my blades and something interesting popped up.
I have an almost similar blade to Achims:
http://www.mr-razor.com/Rasierklingen/1913 Box of 10x12 Gillette Blades France.jpg
Except the blade has the full German patent (162438) and both the wrapper and blade have the line logo instead of the arrow. The wrap has many patent dates listed, like Argentina, Transwaal, Hungary, but England is missing.
Blade lot Nr. is 313, dating it to 1913.
Was there any other Gillette (blade) factory in Europe, besides England, in 1913?
Thanks
Adam
I have an almost similar blade to Achims:
http://www.mr-razor.com/Rasierklingen/1913 Box of 10x12 Gillette Blades France.jpg
Except the blade has the full German patent (162438) and both the wrapper and blade have the line logo instead of the arrow. The wrap has many patent dates listed, like Argentina, Transwaal, Hungary, but England is missing.
Blade lot Nr. is 313, dating it to 1913.
Was there any other Gillette (blade) factory in Europe, besides England, in 1913?
Thanks
Adam
R
romsitsa
George,
could you check the flip sides of your blades please? I'd like to know wether these have the line or arrow logo.
Gillette Single Rings with British Patent Numbers
Thank you
Adam
could you check the flip sides of your blades please? I'd like to know wether these have the line or arrow logo.
Gillette Single Rings with British Patent Numbers
Thank you
Adam
R
romsitsa
A line logo G serial with stumpy pins for Christmas, 1915. Bit confusing is the lack of detail on the vesta style blade box.
More confusing is, that already in 1914 US Gillette advertised pocket editions with ball end razors and plain blade boxes.
Did the British factory ever switched to ball end razors or did they stick with cast handles or did they simply use up spares from the ceased US ABC production?
Adam
More confusing is, that already in 1914 US Gillette advertised pocket editions with ball end razors and plain blade boxes.
Did the British factory ever switched to ball end razors or did they stick with cast handles or did they simply use up spares from the ceased US ABC production?
Adam
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R
romsitsa
Last silly question, when did Gillette Safety Razor Ltd. move from 200. Great Portland Street to 184-188. Great Portland Street?
My guess is 1918 and they still advertised British made razors.
While looking for company locations in Achims ads, I noticed the Gillette line logo dissapears from ads with the introduction of the New Gillette Blades.
Maybe Gillette intentionally (unintentionally) trademarked the line logo in England and switched back to the arrow design with the new patents?
Thank you
Adam
My guess is 1918 and they still advertised British made razors.
While looking for company locations in Achims ads, I noticed the Gillette line logo dissapears from ads with the introduction of the New Gillette Blades.
Maybe Gillette intentionally (unintentionally) trademarked the line logo in England and switched back to the arrow design with the new patents?
Thank you
Adam
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Adam~
I think I can possibly supply answers, in part, to your questions....
First, the ad in question appears to NOT BE A PHOTO, but a very good artists rendering. This was a common practice in those days, newspaper printing was done on the cheap, and photo ads required large expenses - local papers could not afford the equipment....
England declared war on Germany August 4, 1914, so the British Gillette factory could well have already begun to feel the pressures of labor and material shortages, and begun to shut down the factory, as has been established.
I would agree with you, there must have been large amounts of the A.B.C. style parts left to consume.
I am attaching pictures of a razor that I acquired not too long ago, which might be of interest. Note that the ribbon/tape has an arrow, while the rest is 100% British....
Cheers,
Kevin
I think I can possibly supply answers, in part, to your questions....
First, the ad in question appears to NOT BE A PHOTO, but a very good artists rendering. This was a common practice in those days, newspaper printing was done on the cheap, and photo ads required large expenses - local papers could not afford the equipment....
England declared war on Germany August 4, 1914, so the British Gillette factory could well have already begun to feel the pressures of labor and material shortages, and begun to shut down the factory, as has been established.
I would agree with you, there must have been large amounts of the A.B.C. style parts left to consume.
I am attaching pictures of a razor that I acquired not too long ago, which might be of interest. Note that the ribbon/tape has an arrow, while the rest is 100% British....
Cheers,
Kevin
Attachments
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one more picture
R
romsitsa
Hello Kevin,
I think it's actually a photo retouched and collated. The more interesting part is that it's the first time I see an actual G series in an ad and it's called "British made".
Your set, very nice by the way, also raises the question why Gillette bothered to add different serial nr., logo and patent nr. to these seemingly legit US sets?
My only answer would be that ABC/Boston supplied some parts to Leicester to fulfill their orders and these sets were accounted by the British company.
Also interesting that there are GinD stamped B series (1910-11) ABC sets, so Boston/ABC also directly supplied the European market although in theory the British company was responsible for whole Europe.
Adam
I think it's actually a photo retouched and collated. The more interesting part is that it's the first time I see an actual G series in an ad and it's called "British made".
Your set, very nice by the way, also raises the question why Gillette bothered to add different serial nr., logo and patent nr. to these seemingly legit US sets?
My only answer would be that ABC/Boston supplied some parts to Leicester to fulfill their orders and these sets were accounted by the British company.
Also interesting that there are GinD stamped B series (1910-11) ABC sets, so Boston/ABC also directly supplied the European market although in theory the British company was responsible for whole Europe.
Adam
Very interesting, gentlemen....
R
romsitsa
Hello all,
I was browsing The Gillette Blade archives and have a vague theory for Pat.Nov. N markings.
According to Marshall (The Gillette Blade 1919. March) in 1913 the Gillette Safety Razor Company of U. S. A. Ltd. was formed (with registered offices in Boston) to accquire the business of the British office and Leicester plant.
If I understand correctly, the British Ltd. "lost" the Leicester plant somewhen after 1913 and the U. S. A. Ltd. took over manufacturing.
Marshall writes the London company was moved to Leicester "so that the whole of our business could be conducted in one establishement" (selling and manufacturing in 1913?).
But later he also states "It was therefor necessary for the Gillette Safety Razor of U. S. A. Ltd. to discontinue manufacturing..." (so the U. S. A. Ltd. was in charge of Leicester in 1915?).
Maybe the Pat. Nov. N series represent this change. If the U.S.A. Ltd. was formed under US law, it would be logical (for me at least) that they would use the US patent combined with the British patent.
Adam
I was browsing The Gillette Blade archives and have a vague theory for Pat.Nov. N markings.
According to Marshall (The Gillette Blade 1919. March) in 1913 the Gillette Safety Razor Company of U. S. A. Ltd. was formed (with registered offices in Boston) to accquire the business of the British office and Leicester plant.
If I understand correctly, the British Ltd. "lost" the Leicester plant somewhen after 1913 and the U. S. A. Ltd. took over manufacturing.
Marshall writes the London company was moved to Leicester "so that the whole of our business could be conducted in one establishement" (selling and manufacturing in 1913?).
But later he also states "It was therefor necessary for the Gillette Safety Razor of U. S. A. Ltd. to discontinue manufacturing..." (so the U. S. A. Ltd. was in charge of Leicester in 1915?).
Maybe the Pat. Nov. N series represent this change. If the U.S.A. Ltd. was formed under US law, it would be logical (for me at least) that they would use the US patent combined with the British patent.
Adam
This, being the behind the scene facts, explains my two sets like the one attached. I have read numerous times on B&B threads, that during WWI, both the U.S. and Canada supplied razors to England (and for further sale in other European countries via England). This also explains appearance of the U.S. style of serial numbering.... My question is that, having never seen (or possibly just never recognized one), how are those sets made in Canada distinguished from those which are made in the U.S.?
And, back to square one, did the British factory actually stamp their own metal cases, or were they made in the U.S. and obtained from Gillette or the A.B.C.? Also, did they actually cast their own A.B.C. style solid razors, or merely obtain them as well, possibly having them manufactured in England?
So much that we do not know....
Cheers,
Kevin
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R
romsitsa
Hello Kevin,
I think Canada was the only plant that stamped the GinD onto the cases. With Ball end razors, US ones should have the Pat. Nov. inscription on the lower smooth band of the handle and Gillette logo on the comb, Canadians should have Made in Canada and Gillette diamond stamped onto the comb.
How Gillette supplied retailers, offices, own companies is a bit bogus to me, as it looks like the British company was formed to supply England and the crown colonies (later parts of continental Europe) but Boston also got direct purchase orders from England and Europe.
My best guess is that Leicester was producing Single rings (and sets) pocket edition heads and at least one style of handle and also got supply from US and/or Canada. Without knowing actual sales numbers, it's hard to figure out wether or not it was worth to install metal stamps in Leicester or to order the cases from Boston or ABC.
Adam
I think Canada was the only plant that stamped the GinD onto the cases. With Ball end razors, US ones should have the Pat. Nov. inscription on the lower smooth band of the handle and Gillette logo on the comb, Canadians should have Made in Canada and Gillette diamond stamped onto the comb.
How Gillette supplied retailers, offices, own companies is a bit bogus to me, as it looks like the British company was formed to supply England and the crown colonies (later parts of continental Europe) but Boston also got direct purchase orders from England and Europe.
My best guess is that Leicester was producing Single rings (and sets) pocket edition heads and at least one style of handle and also got supply from US and/or Canada. Without knowing actual sales numbers, it's hard to figure out wether or not it was worth to install metal stamps in Leicester or to order the cases from Boston or ABC.
Adam
R
romsitsa
Did we discuss this 460 earlier?
Is this a British made single ring?
A legit Brit. Pat. from the early? H series, but I think there is a clue.
It has the "star" stamp, but the shipper states it has 12 New process blades and it costs 25 Francs?
Based on the blades it can't be earlier than 1908.
If we assume that Gillette didn't use the "British" emblem before it was patented, this set can't be earlier than April 1909.
Maybe the star was the first "silver mark" used by Gillette, then they changed to G in square and G in D.
The other interesting read is the court case Porter posted earlier.
It looks like Gillette used the British limited licence on the boxes as early as 1906, it really looks like Britain required the usage of the British patents.
Full text of "Reports of patent, design, and trade mark cases"
Adam
Is this a British made single ring?
A legit Brit. Pat. from the early? H series, but I think there is a clue.
It has the "star" stamp, but the shipper states it has 12 New process blades and it costs 25 Francs?
Based on the blades it can't be earlier than 1908.
If we assume that Gillette didn't use the "British" emblem before it was patented, this set can't be earlier than April 1909.
Maybe the star was the first "silver mark" used by Gillette, then they changed to G in square and G in D.
The other interesting read is the court case Porter posted earlier.
It looks like Gillette used the British limited licence on the boxes as early as 1906, it really looks like Britain required the usage of the British patents.
Full text of "Reports of patent, design, and trade mark cases"
Adam
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R
romsitsa
Bump.
Why does Useless shavers Sr have no Gillette diamond? If a US C serial, it's from 1915 and should have one. I don't think it could be Canadian as it has the Pat.Nov N patent. I would also exclued the possibility of a British serial as known E,F serials and this one would sum up to roughly 2 million razors produced.
Gillette Single Rings with British Patent Numbers
Adam
Why does Useless shavers Sr have no Gillette diamond? If a US C serial, it's from 1915 and should have one. I don't think it could be Canadian as it has the Pat.Nov N patent. I would also exclued the possibility of a British serial as known E,F serials and this one would sum up to roughly 2 million razors produced.
Gillette Single Rings with British Patent Numbers
Adam
Interesting, Adam... I can't discuss properly why it's not a razor for the English market... maybe a Frankenrazor?
R
romsitsa
I don't think it could be a franken Juan, as it has the serial on the comb and patent on the handle, and a comb swap should be visible.
The thing that bothers me is US C series usually have the diamond, Canadians C-s the Canadian patent, if it's English, then there are C, E, F, G, K series?
All in all, E series alone have roughly 700 000 numbers. Before 1917-18 even Boston didn't produce this much.
Adam
The thing that bothers me is US C series usually have the diamond, Canadians C-s the Canadian patent, if it's English, then there are C, E, F, G, K series?
All in all, E series alone have roughly 700 000 numbers. Before 1917-18 even Boston didn't produce this much.
Adam
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