Gillette Single Rings with British Patent Numbers

[GBinOZ]

I recently acquired a British single ring and in trying to date it I discovered a multitude of anomalies. There is a thread dedicated to identifying Canada Serial Numbers. Is there any interest in doing the same for British Serial Numbers?

I guess the first distinction to be made is the razors made FOR the British market and those actually made in Britain at Leicester. Since evidence indicates that Leicester became operational in late 1908/early 1909, I would suggest that the razors with serial numbers beginning with A or B may fall into the “made for” category. There is evidence that Gillette moved out of Leicester in early 1916, but it is likely that production may have been severely curtailed earlier for the several reasons. Firstly there would be a drain of workers to the western front with units forming in late 1914, and to other industries more oriented to wartime production, and secondly the loss of market due to former customers turning into enemies. So actual production of razors at Leicester could have ceased as early as late 1914.

The “made in” razors with British Patent Numbers would seem to have serial numbers beginning with E, F, G and H. It is possible that during 1909 to 1914 “made for” razors continued to come from the US or Canada and to have the British Patent, and this may be the explanation for some of the differences.

Porter has speculated that the letters may have indicated the market for which they were bound. Another possibility may be that production workers were split into groups with each group being allocated a letter which was well clear of the Boston production’s “B”. Whatever the reason, production of each letter seems that it may have been concurrent.

If, in an exercise similar to the Canada Serial Number project, information is to be gathered, of what should that information be comprised? There appear to be at least 2 variations of the lettering in the Patent Number, Brit.Pat.No.28763 of 02 and Br.Pat.No.28763.02. The Patent number is located either on the base of the handle or on the inner cylinder. Serial numbers are on the inner cylinder, the base of the handle or the blade guard. The blade and arrow logo appears on some and not others, but not in a consistent chronological manner. My single ring H003530 and Achim’s H711612 have no logo but I have noted 2 “H” serial numbers between these that do have the logo. Also, my serial number is on the blade guard and Achim’s is on the inner cylinder which is the opposite of what is usually expected.

I have compiled a spreadsheet of information for British Patented razors prefixed with E, F, G or H that I have noticed on forums or eBay.

Patent Nos
Brit.Pat.No.28763 of 02	1
Br.Pat.No.28763.02	2
			Ser#		Pat#		GinD	Owner
		Inner	Blade		Inner
SERIAL NUMBER	Logo	Cyl	Guard	Hdle	Cyl	Hdle
E102560	No
E202419	Yes			X	2
E203238	Yes			X	X			Turtledrum
E239300	Yes			X	2			MacDaddy
E266131
F021233	No						Yes
F206586	Yes			X	-	-	Yes	Ebay
G024867 (ABC)	Yes		X		None	None	No	Achim
G051727(Pocket)
H000882	No		X			2	No	Ebay
H003530	No		X			2	Yes	GBinOZ
H028400	Yes		X			2	No	Lord Tech
H076...	Yes			X	X
H094...	Yes			X	X	2
H711612	No	X				1		Achim

Perhaps this could form a beginning for a Wiki overseen by a member more experienced and learned in such matters than I?

 

[elmerwood]

Sweet! I'll see if I have any and see where they land on your chart.

EDIT: Mine is #E202419 Brit Pat # 2876302 with logo on cap and base plate.

 

[MacDaddy]

Links to the threads where they were discussed or to photos of the razors in question, etc., like we've tried to do over in the Canadian list, would also be very helpful in case there are other things we want to try to examine after the list is already underway.

It would also be good, where possible, to capture where geographically the razor was found. Obviously, in many cases it's hard to know if a seller's location on eBay, for example, is any indication of the razor's "origin" in the wild, but with enough samples we may find more concrete patterns than the ones I've seen anecdotally and conjectured about.

 

[BSAGuy]

Nice research. Thanks for sharing. I look forward to keeping up with this as it develops. Thanks for your service to the collecting community.

 

[GBinOZ]

Sweet! I'll see if I have any and see where they land on your chart.

EDIT: Mine is #E202419 Brit Pat # 2876302 with logo on cap and base plate.

I already had your razor on my chart but had the Pat No as "Br.Pat.No.28763.02" located on the inner cylinder and the serial number on the handle - is this correct?

 

[GBinOZ]

It would also be good, where possible, to capture where geographically the razor was found.

Excellent idea. This would address your conjecture regarding the letter being an indication of the area for which the razor was bound and for the GinD being an indication of production for the European market.

My razor (H003530) came from Languedoc-Rousillon, France, and H000882 is from Instanbul, Turkey.

 

[elmerwood]

I already had your razor on my chart but had the Pat No as "Br.Pat.No.28763.02" located on the inner cylinder and the serial number on the handle - is this correct?

Thats correct.

 

[CDK20007]

This one has a BR PAT 28763.02 on the handle, but has a strange s/n: TC436331. Any ideas on what this is?

 

[elmerwood]

This one has a BR PAT 28763.02 on the handle, but has a strange s/n: TC436331. Any ideas on what this is?

View attachment 431848

This one is new to me

 

[mr-razor]

or is it PC for a canadian one?

 

[MacDaddy]

That's definitely strange. We've seen some other serial number weirdness from the British plant, though. Achim's got this one that, aside from being marked very unusually, has what appears to be a "KCC" prefixed serial number, unless those are actually supposed to have been zeroes from a worn or flawed die. I've got a different one somewhere with a double-letter prefix that I'll have to find when I get home -- I can't remember what it was off the top of my head.

I'll put this out there, even though I doubt that it's very likely: there are more than a couple instances of Czechoslovakia having been spelled "Tczecho-Slovakia" or "Tczechoslovakia," especially immediately after its having declared its independence from the Austro-Hungarian Empire. The problem is that wasn't until 1918.

 

[ItsAllGravy]

Mine has the serial on the band above the twist knob H060192, Br Pat no. 2876302 around the top of the inner barrel, gillette logo on under side of the cap & on the top of the base plate.

 

[CDK20007]

or is it PC for a canadian one?

Definitely TC.

 

[GBinOZ]

That's definitely strange. We've seen some other serial number weirdness from the British plant, though. Achim's got this one that, aside from being marked very unusually, has what appears to be a "KCC" prefixed serial number, unless those are actually supposed to have been zeroes from a worn or flawed die. I've got a different one somewhere with a double-letter prefix that I'll have to find when I get home -- I can't remember what it was off the top of my head.

I'll put this out there, even though I doubt that it's very likely: there are more than a couple instances of Czechoslovakia having been spelled "Tczecho-Slovakia" or "Tczechoslovakia," especially immediately after its having declared its independence from the Austro-Hungarian Empire. The problem is that wasn't until 1918.

Interesting theory. But to which country do we attribute Achim's "KCC".

I've been looking at the Encyclopedia Silver Marks, Hallmarks and Maker's Marks here: http://www.925-1000.com/british_marks.html.

Under Maker's Marks is says "The enforced use of the maker's mark was instituted in London in 1363.....by the beginning of the 17th century it had become common practice to use the maker's initials". So the Brit's were quite used to this idea. Could the letter suffixes have been worker group identification's? Or did gillette contract out the silver plating to silversmith's set up for this work and the letter refer to their maker's mark? For instance,Thomas Chawner was a London silversmith who used the maker's mark of "TC".

 

[GBinOZ]

It shows on this page http://www.925-1000.com/Ffrench_marks.html

French Silverplate Marks - Maker's Trademark in a rectangle or square cartouche.

All three razors on my list with an "F" have the GinD, but so does my "H" razor which I found in France.

 

[GBinOZ]

Here is my updated table.

Patent Nos
Brit.Pat.No.28763 of 02	1
Br.Pat.No.28763.02	2
			Ser#		Pat#		GinD	Owner	Found	Link
		Inner	Blade		Inner
SERIAL NUMBER	Logo	Cyl	Guard	Hdle	Cyl	Hdle
E102560	No
E202419	Yes			X	2			Elmerwood
E203238	Yes			X	X			Turtledrum		Link
E239300	Yes			X	2			MacDaddy		Link
E266131				X	2			ECD		Link
F021233	No						Yes
F206586	Yes			X	-	-	Yes	Ebay	Turkey
F3.2...	Yes			X			Yes	thekinge		Link
G 5031		X				1		Achim		Link
G024867 (ABC)	Yes		X		None	None	No	Achim
G051727(Pocket)	Yes		X					Nightguard		Link
H000882	No		X			2	No	Ebay	Turkey
H003530	No		X			2	Yes	GBinOZ	France	Link
H028400	Yes		X			2	No	Lord Tech		Link
H060192	Yes			X	2			ItsAllGravy		Link
H076...	Yes			X	X
H094...	Yes			X	X	2		ERVARGASNY		Link
H711612	No	X				1		Achim		Link
KCC6422	Yes		X		None	None		Achim		Link
TC436331			X		2			CDK2007		Link

If any owners have additions or corrections please post them.
Cheers, George

 

[MacDaddy]

Interesting theory. But to which country do we attribute Achim's "KCC".

No clue. It could just as easily be "K00..." (though they really do look like 'C's) but I still don't have a guess for what a "K" would represent.

Under Maker's Marks is says "The enforced use of the maker's mark was instituted in London in 1363.....by the beginning of the 17th century it had become common practice to use the maker's initials". So the Brit's were quite used to this idea. Could the letter suffixes have been worker group identification's? Or did gillette contract out the silver plating to silversmith's set up for this work and the letter refer to their maker's mark? For instance,Thomas Chawner was a London silversmith who used the maker's mark of "TC".

I highly doubt that the prefix to the serial number would have been used as any kind of hallmarking device. And I haven't seen any reason to think that Gillette didn't do their own plating at the Leicester plant. We know that they did their own plating in Canada, since it's one of the things that they talked about having trouble with early on, so that seems to have been their general M.O. And it wasn't an insubstantial setup that they had in England:

It shows on this page http://www.925-1000.com/Ffrench_marks.html

French Silverplate Marks - Maker's Trademark in a rectangle or square cartouche.

All three razors on my list with an "F" have the GinD, but so does my "H" razor which I found in France.

Yes, the G-in-D mark is the closest to something that might be considered that sort of mark, and it does seem to trace back to French requirements, as best as we can guess. Higher and lower in that same thread you can see some later NEW-era examples of an expanded version of the mark that included a "G" and a diamond inside what is really probably more of a shield than a "D" and both were also marked for importation to France:

 

[GBinOZ]

So, scraping the plating mark idea, can any creedance be given to a maker's mark theory in the Gillette factory? I initially thought that the simplest answer may be that the Brit's adopted a series of letters from E to H and assigned those letters to either a maker or a group. However, KCC (or K) and TC don't work with that logic.

Thanks to Porter for those razor photos. I have never seen the G with a triangle in what I would call a cartouche, which apparently got its name when Napolean's soldiers in Egypt thought that the shape surrounding the Pharaoh's name resembled their gun cartridges. So the G, presumably standing for Gillette, in D would actually resemble a square cartouche.

 

[alex2363]

Great thread, I'm in on it......hopefully i can contribute some insight soon.

 

[Ace McCool]

Thanks to Porter for those razor photos. I have never seen the G with a triangle in what I would call a cartouche, which apparently got its name when Napolean's soldiers in Egypt thought that the shape surrounding the Pharaoh's name resembled their gun cartridges. So the G, presumably standing for Gillette, in D would actually resemble a square cartouche.

That is a very good theory and the best I've seen to actually explain what the symbol means. I found this site from the one you posted:

http://www.925-1000.com/dlc_london.html

While this is from England and doesn't exactly apply here it gives some more clues:

It shows examples of letters in cartouches and says, "The shape of the cartouche around the city mark and standard mark...."

It also talks about import marks on silver being imported to London and the letter F was used for Foreign. The G could stand for Gillette or perhaps for a French word used to refer to importing. But I'd say you are right, and it's not a D, it's a G in a Shield or Cartouche. I speak French but can't think of a word that would be used like "foreign" or "imported" that starts with a G.

Very well done. We are getting closer to figuring out exactly what this mark means.