Getting from "popping" to "slicing"

[captaincaed]

Nice clear photos, try different backgrounds black or white depending on what you are trying to capture, I use a sheat of craft foam, a buck or two at any craft store or Walmart. Also try not to move the scope or lighting from photo to photo.

Looks like you are honing to the edge, though there is some fuzzy edge near the toe and heel. The shiny reflection at both ends of both photos are either a rolled edge or a not fully set bevel.

There are some deep stria that go all the way to the edge and will end in a micro-chip they need to come out.

If you are going to take comparison photographs, compare one grit finish to another, mark the blade from edge to spine with a colored sharpie or pick a defect in the blade, like the long diagonal scratch on the belly near the left side of photo 1.

Then use that mark as a registration mark so you are photographing the same spot each time.

What grit is it finished to?

What does the edge look like, looking straight down on the edge?

Shiny spots are where the bevels are not meeting fully or the edge is rolled.

Thanks for the tip on the backgrounds. Just a notecard now, will experiment with darker backgrounds too. The camera has a built in LED - pretty handy. I’ll throw on a sharpie mark as well, that’s a great tip.

I’m pretty sure I honed to the edge, then either created a microbevel or convexity with the strop. Will do an investigation of the edge straight on.

This razor started at ~HHT3 (and pretty much ended in the same plalce), then I decided to try a nagura progression since I have a JNAT and nagura for the first time (Shobudani asagi that was sold to me second hand as a razor stone, but we’ll see), so it didn’t go from the ground up. For the next run, will start with 2k bevel set, then 4k, 8k, 10k, and then and finisher. I hadn’t appreciated just how sensitive the process was to small details, small convexity, not being able to actually hit the edge, etc.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Try a diamond slurry and stay on it until all the deep bevel setting stria are gone. It will also tell you a lot about your stone.

Your edge should shave, but there is still room for improvement. Straight razor shaving is not just about sharp or HHT. Sharp is easy.

If you re-hone I would start with the 4k to just re-set and refine the edge, depending on what you see when looking straight down on the edge.

I think you are pretty close, and the fuzzy edge may be edge damage from the slurry, common with folks new to finishing on slurry. Slurry can be a double edge sword, it can cut aggressively, but that same aggressive slurry is pounding the edge, which is why we thin the slurry and finish on water or very thin well worked/ground slurry. It can be one step forward, two back.

The difference between good and great is very small, its all about the details and how you prepared the edge for the finish.

Try to perfect each stone in the progression and remove ALL the previous grit scratches with each stone. Stropping on linen between stones help clean and build a stronger edge.

The 8 to 10k progression may be redundant depending on your stones and should not matter if you are finishing on a Jnat or other natural stone.

The goal is a solid bevel set, then polish up to a clean 8k as close to near mirror, then finish on a natural. I like Jnats or hard Arks. From a solid 8k bevel it is an easy jump.

 

[Empire straights]

For some reason this is another controversial topic

Great for kitchen knives though...

 

[Bowmaker]

Great for kitchen knives though...

You do this on the corner of your stone?

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

“For some reason this is another controversial topic.”

“You do this on the corner of your stone?”

Yea, somebody always does not like something.

Try it. I try most everything. Some things work for me, some don’t. But don’t do something that is virtually harmless, just because somebody does not like it, also consider the source.

You can use the vertical corner of the stone, I use the top 1 inch of the horizontal edge.

This way the edge will never ride on the micro nick you may put into the stone, worst case the spine may ride on it, but usually my honing stroke does not start that high up the stone, and when I re-lap I also give the edges 2-3 laps.

I always do a quick re-lap with a 600 Atoma for my final laps to ensure I am finish honing on a clean surface.

 

[JPO]

You do this on the corner of your stone?

I use the corner of a soft 8k Naniwa if i used it during/after a midrange stone. You just need a light touch. If you use a hard fast stone you might be setting the edge back too far. I will not do it if i use natural stones, unless i clearly have over honed the edge.
You just need to find what works for you and if/when you "need" to do it.
The bevel does not develop at a constant rate along the edge. You might have one part of the edge that need more work, while a different part is "done". Removing some of the over worked edge makes sense to me.
I have found it really useful, especially if i am removing chips or doing a little more work. I will then typically just use the corner of the coarse stone.
The goal is for the apex to close roughly at the same time. This avoids over honing parts of the edge that is "prematurely" finished.
In theory, if you did all your work perfect, and avoided any part of the edge to form a micro burr this is not something you need to do. Slurry from a natural stone more ore less does the same thing, but synthetic slurry does more damage then good in most cases.

 

[Frank Shaves]

To me jointing is the same as killing an edge. It's just a matter of how much pressure and how coarse a material we use.

What I am getting from this conversation, is that we can kill (joint) edges any time in the progression. Hey, if it works, do it!

Rule number one: there are no rules.

 

[captaincaed]

Since @JPO opened the topic, what do you consider over honing? It’s not something that really comes up in the knife world. Is it a real thing for razors?

 

[JPO]

Since @JPO opened the topic, what do you consider over honing? It’s not something that really comes up in the knife world. Is it a real thing for razors?

I am not sure if there is a clear definition.
When the edge gets thinner then the steel can support at a given bevel angle you are over honing in my opinion. You will always have some weak parts which gets cleaned up on your linen and leather, but if the edge is over honed you will probably not recover just on the strops.
If you inspect edges under magnification some razors are really quite close to their functional limits around 12k. Doing allot of work on a synthetic stone after this usually gives you a over honed edge if you are not careful.
If the edge fails during the first shave i would also say it is over honed, or taken past it's working limit.

 

[Frank Shaves]

Since @JPO opened the topic, what do you consider over honing? It’s not something that really comes up in the knife world. Is it a real thing for razors?

I'll bite. Removing more metal than necessary. In a perfect world, you want to stop when you have shaped a nice apex and for subsequent stones when you have removed the previous scratch marks. No need to keep rubbing.

 

[JPO]

Since @JPO opened the topic, what do you consider over honing? It’s not something that really comes up in the knife world. Is it a real thing for razors?

Here is one blurry image of an over honed edge. Some of this will be removed on the strops, but the edge have been taken to far. A balsa strop will most likely clean this up.
There is no scale presented here, but a human hair would probably cover most of the width of this image.

 

[captaincaed]

Here is one blurry image of an over honed edge. Some of this will be removed on the strops, but the edge have been taken to far. A balsa strop will most likely clean this up.
There is no scale presented here, but a human hair would probably cover most of the width of this image.
View attachment 1500350

This is really clear, I can see the feathering where the metal has been drawn out like foil, but to much so. Very interesting.

 

[captaincaed]

Well I nearly went nuts, and I haven't gotten tangibly better results yet but I think I've learned a lot.

All this work was done on bare stones, newly flattened, cleaning the swarf and slurry every 10-20 passes. All edge leading, changing angles between stones to make the transitions more visible. There are intermediate photos every 10-20 passes, so I'm showing these only after the earlier scratch pattern is erased. All counts are "X passes per side".

Was getting good undercut on my honing fluids (to my eye), so I think (hope?) I'm mostly getting good stone/bevel contact up to the apex.

0 - the starting point, I think this was honed on a koma nagura slurry, then bare shobudani. Doesn't look great.

1 - 20 passes on the 4k stone. What I will come to decide later is this probably wasn't enough, and I probably should have set the bevel at a lower grit, or a bit more time on the 4k.

2 - about 90 passes on the 8k, plus some short strokes. Here, I'm getting the bevel stick to the stone under standing water.

3 - 60 passes on the 10K. May in fact be functionally finer than the 8k. Maybe, maybe not. The edge feels a bit more refined, but hard to tell visually since the scratches are going a different direction. No tree-topping yet (without stropping).

4 - Stropped on flat denim and green chromox - edge is less furry an it does indeed tree-top now.

5 - About 90-100 passes on the Shobudani. This feels less refined than the 10k if I'm honest, a bit disappointing. However, the feedback is amazing, and the bevel was sticking quite well to the stone surface. Maybe I just need to learn how to used it better. Maybe my bevel wasn't set. I'll need to find out another day.

6 - Jointing the edge on the shobudani as an exercise - edge looks like it's lost some fur.

7 - Edge on view after ~20 more strokes on the shobudani, then chromox - still some reflection at the edge.

8 - After a few more strokes, I erased the reflection, then went after it with the Ark. Could barely see any difference through this process, but the edge feels hard and clean, and get closer to HHT 3 (root out).

9 - Last, stropping chromox, linen, leather after the Ark.

So, from the side, there's still that reflection at the very apex at the sides of the pictures. Not sure if that's a trick of the light (this camera has little LEDs tucked up in a ring around the lens), but I suspect the bevel still isn't really, truly set. Either that, or maybe I'm missing a stone between 8/10k and the other finishers.

I've learned that I probably need to spend more time honing at the higher grits than I thought at first. It really does need to be on the order of ~80 strokes, +/- to truly get the work done. I learned I may still not be setting the bevel. Based on what others see, I may need to consider another stone between 10K and true finishers, although conventional wisdom seems to say 8k is the jumping off point. I think I also learned the shobudani is may be better reserved for knife edges (and that wouldn't be a bad thing).

Anyway, just to say I'm taking the feedback to heart, giving it a go, and having fun. Although I probably spent way too much time on this.

 

[Frank Shaves]

If I am starting from scratch, I kill the edge on a beer bottle and then set the bevel until every mm easily slices a cherry tomato. After this, each stone's job is to remove the previous stone's scratch marks.

When removing scratch marks, I examine the entire edge with my loupe until the entire edge has a uniform appearance. Using my Belomo 10x Triplet, there are often portions of the edge (most often near the toe and/or heel) that take longer or require extra attention to match the rest of the edge.

The whole thing just takes practice and, with practice, you learn when each stone has completed its job.

After restoring a razor, I typically use 1k, 4k, 8k and 12k synthetics. If the edge shaves well, then it is off to the naturals.

 

[JPO]

T

Well I nearly went nuts, and I haven't gotten tangibly better results yet but I think I've learned a lot.

All this work was done on bare stones, newly flattened, cleaning the swarf and slurry every 10-20 passes. All edge leading, changing angles between stones to make the transitions more visible. There are intermediate photos every 10-20 passes, so I'm showing these only after the earlier scratch pattern is erased. All counts are "X passes per side".

Was getting good undercut on my honing fluids (to my eye), so I think (hope?) I'm mostly getting good stone/bevel contact up to the apex.

0 - the starting point, I think this was honed on a koma nagura slurry, then bare shobudani. Doesn't look great.
View attachment 1500444

1 - 20 passes on the 4k stone. What I will come to decide later is this probably wasn't enough, and I probably should have set the bevel at a lower grit, or a bit more time on the 4k.
View attachment 1500469

2 - about 90 passes on the 8k, plus some short strokes. Here, I'm getting the bevel stick to the stone under standing water.
View attachment 1500446

3 - 60 passes on the 10K. May in fact be functionally finer than the 8k. Maybe, maybe not. The edge feels a bit more refined, but hard to tell visually since the scratches are going a different direction. No tree-topping yet (without stropping).
View attachment 1500449

4 - Stropped on flat denim and green chromox - edge is less furry an it does indeed tree-top now.
View attachment 1500450

5 - About 90-100 passes on the Shobudani. This feels less refined than the 10k if I'm honest, a bit disappointing. However, the feedback is amazing, and the bevel was sticking quite well to the stone surface. Maybe I just need to learn how to used it better. Maybe my bevel wasn't set. I'll need to find out another day.
View attachment 1500452

6 - Jointing the edge on the shobudani as an exercise - edge looks like it's lost some fur.
View attachment 1500454

7 - Edge on view after ~20 more strokes on the shobudani, then chromox - still some reflection at the edge.

View attachment 1500455

8 - After a few more strokes, I erased the reflection, then went after it with the Ark. Could barely see any difference through this process, but the edge feels hard and clean, and get closer to HHT 3 (root out).
View attachment 1500458
View attachment 1500460

9 - Last, stropping chromox, linen, leather after the Ark.

So, from the side, there's still that reflection at the very apex at the sides of the pictures. Not sure if that's a trick of the light (this camera has little LEDs tucked up in a ring around the lens), but I suspect the bevel still isn't really, truly set. Either that, or maybe I'm missing a stone between 8/10k and the other finishers.

I've learned that I probably need to spend more time honing at the higher grits than I thought at first. It really does need to be on the order of ~80 strokes, +/- to truly get the work done. I learned I may still not be setting the bevel. Based on what others see, I may need to consider another stone between 10K and true finishers, although conventional wisdom seems to say 8k is the jumping off point. I think I also learned the shobudani is may be better reserved for knife edges (and that wouldn't be a bad thing).

Anyway, just to say I'm taking the feedback to heart, giving it a go, and having fun. Although I probably spent way too much time on this.

It looks like the bevel is not completely set on your 4k. From the looks of your 8k image, there seems to be some deeper striations that are uncovered. Those might be from your bevel setter, before the 4k. I think you need to spend more time on the 4k to get the bevel refined and set.
I would probably wait experimenting with jointing techniques at this stage. If you do it i would do it early on in the progression. Slurry on a JNAT will most likely leave you with clean edge if done right without the need for it.
When you move to the 8k from an 4k, the edge will probably start sticking to the stone before you have closed the apex, if you are not where you need to be after the 4k. It just means you have a flat bevel. This will work against you. It is better to do the work on the 4k.

This will probably be a personal preference, but you should not need to spend allot of time on an 8k or a 10k.
Depending on the stones you have, and how well you prepare the edge before the 8k, you only need to do a limited amount of work at this stage. For me, usually 10 to 15 laps is enough. If the blade starts sticking to the stone, and the razor is not popping arm hair at this stage, don't push you luck on the 8k, you need to go back.

Some 8k stones do have some range, but i think it is easier to focus on the ground work.
Now you are mixing in allot of different stones and trying different things at the same time.
Make it simple. If you go all the way to a 10k, go to the Arkansas. I think going all the way to an 8k is a little high if you plan on using a JNAT with slurry. If you have a good stone, it should be quite easy to go from a 4k to the JNAT with DMT/Atoma generated slurry, then finish with a tomo slurry. There is nothing wrong with going to an 8k before the JNAT, but you are dealing with a more delicate edge at this point. Koma slurry is probably even a few steps back from an 8k when the slurry starts out.

The 10k is redundant if you plan on going to a JNAT as you finisher, but 10k to an Arkansas stone should work well.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

“1 - 20 passes on the 4k stone. What I will come to decide later is this probably wasn't enough, and I probably should have set the bevel at a lower grit, or a bit more time on the 4k.”

You cannot hone to a recipe (X number of laps). You set a bevel by honing on the bevel setter, (whatever grit it is), until you are honing to the edge completely, have a uniform stria pattern from heel to toe and the bevels are meeting fully from heel to toe. How ever many laps it takes.

Then with your next stone you remove all the previous stria, all the deep stria, without damaging the edge, refining the edge more.

Once the bevel is set, (the bevels are completely flat, in the correct plane and meeting fully at the edge) you can joint the edge and reset it in 5-20 laps. You only need to remove a few microns of steel to get flat bevels to meet again after jointing. The higher the grit the fewer lap you will need.

Jointing after each stone will make a stronger edge, provided the bevel was fully set to begin with.

The 10K looks like a polisher, but first remove all the deep bevel setting stria.

Finish on either an Ark or Jnat, not both. But if you go to either stone the bevel should be near mirror, with no deep stria on the bevel. A Jnat should be able to remove deep stria, but if the bevel is polished, you know the edge is pure Jnat.

Arks cut slow, actually polish and will not remove deep stria.

Hone one stone at a time, getting all each stone will give.

What slurry are you using with the Jnat, that does not look like a Jnat edge? It may not be a finisher.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Do not put a lot of weight on the razor sticking to the stone, especially when new to honing. Sticking usually means the one bevel is flat, but does not mean the bevels are meeting.

If you burn though your tape it can feel like the razor is sticking to the stone, because it is.

 

[captaincaed]

It looks like the bevel is not completely set on your 4k. From the looks of your 8k image, there seems to be some deeper striations that are uncovered.

I think this is the issue, thanks for the eye.

If the blade starts sticking to the stone, and the razor is not popping arm hair at this stage, don't push you luck on the 8k, you need to go back.

Got it, I'll keep this in mind. I guess I was thinking "oh, I've got a burr" (since I'm a knife guy), and I'll get that burr off later. Sounds like I should be popping hair (without stropping?)

You cannot hone to a recipe (X number of laps). You set a bevel by honing on the bevel setter, (whatever grit it is), until you are honing to the edge completely, have a uniform stria pattern from heel to toe and the bevels are meeting fully from heel to toe. How ever many laps it takes.

Totally agree. I don't plan to be "a counter", but it's helpful at the beginning to get a ballpark for expectations, so I don't over or underwork too much.

Once the bevel is set, (the bevels are completely flat, in the correct plane and meeting fully at the edge) you can joint the edge and reset it in 5-20 laps. You only need to remove a few microns of steel to get flat bevels to meet again after jointing. The higher the grit the fewer lap you will need.

I hadn't thought of jointing on the coarsest stone, or every stone. I'll keep this in mind.

Finish on either an Ark or Jnat, not both. But if you go to either stone the bevel should be near mirror, with no deep stria on the bevel. A Jnat should be able to remove deep stria, but if the bevel is polished, you know the edge is pure Jnat.

Got it. Once I realize I had fallen short, I was playing around at the end to see what things looked like.

What slurry are you using with the Jnat, that does not look like a Jnat edge? It may not be a finisher.

No slurry at all, bare stone and water. I'm starting to have the same suspicion... Shobudani asagi from a private seller. May be worth going to a reputable retailer.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Try some Diamond slurry, slurry made with a diamond plate, any plate from 300 to 1k. It does not really matter, Jnat slurry is friable and will break down to a finer grit the more it is worked.

I use a 600-grit plate but have use 300 and 1k plates and not notice much difference in finish, though 300 may be a bit more aggressive.

A good Jnat should be able to remove all 1k stria with just diamond slurry in less than 100 laps.

Look at Alex Gilmore’s JapanStones website for great honing videos with very clear micrographs of bevels and edges and honing technique.

Alex has several videos where he tests Jnats by setting a bevel with a King 1k, then removing all the deep 1k stria and finish polishing the bevel and edge with the same slurry.

How fast the Jnat base stone removes the 1k slurry and how well it polishes a bevel, will tell you a lot about your stone. Not all Jnats are razor stones, and some can easily be improved by pairing with a different Nagura.

Few Jnats can finish on plain water, and it is technique driven, usually only for the final few laps. I finish on whisper thin hazy well worked/thinned Jnat slurry.

Don’t be quick to toss a stone. Many time on razor forums I have seen where a guy will sell a nice natural stone cheap, because he could not get the stone to perform.

The new owner gets the stone and claims it’s the best finisher he has ever used.

Sometimes you need to grow into a stone, a lot about honing is learning technique.

I often tell new honers who finally get a good edge on a razor, that a year from now, using the exact same stones your edges will be 100 times better. It’s not the stone.

The blade should have a fine, hazy, sandblast Kazumi finish no deep stria no high, bright polish.

 

[captaincaed]

Thanks for the cautionary note. I was definitely planning to hang onto it. I now appreciate where I need to be getting on the synths before I dive into the natural finishers.

It's funny you mention Alex - honestly it was his videos that inspired me to nail my technique recently. Those are instructive and empowering vids.

Had another good hone today, did a better job of setting the bevel, better job on the mid grits, but the polishing stage showed a few straggling grooves. One more day of practice under the belt.