getting a wedge shave ready

[The Knize]

I am embarassed to be asking this as I thought I had some idea of what I was doing and I apoloogize for not taking the time to read through more on what is on this part of the forum. I thought I was reading new stuff throughout B&B as it came in, but I guess not here for some reason.

Anyway, I bought a 5/8 Joseph Rodgers wedge on Ebay that needed some work. It had quite a bit of rust on the blade, which I managed to pretty much polish off. Obviously the edge was not shave ready. I had a Double Arrow that was pretty rough when I got it that I had managed to bring to a really nice edge. I guess the other razors I have were professionally honed when I got them, but I have certain kept the edges up. But all I really have had to work with are balsa paddle strops with diamond spray and separately with CrOx. Just recently I also got some felt. I also have several straps and strops of good quality.

Anyway, I have tried to I guess set a bevel on this and to hone an edge. It looks good, nice even clean fresh steel exposed at what looks like a nice angle on each side, etc. And it sort of feels sharp but it won't shave any hair on my arm and it sure as heck will not shave my beard. I know very hard to diagnose through postings, but is it just impossible to set a bevel this way? Is that the problem? Again I am being lazy, but what to folks think the best think to read to read up on this and try to figure this out is?

Mighty rookie question at this stage of the game, I know.

 

[gugi]

To set a bevel you need something that removes steel reasonably fast, 1000-grit level hone is what most people use. You can do it with a sandpaper on a flat surface too, if you're careful.
Other than that shiny bevel doesn't mean too much the two sides need to meet so that the edge is less than half micrometer wide.
I think the guys in europe are more into refining the bevel with pasted strops instead of hones, so if you take this route you may want to check those forums too.

 

[leighton]

The problem with wedges is that when the spine is on the stone, the bevel is very thick/large. This means you have to remove all that much more steel. So what would otherwise be more than adequate for a hollow will not even dent the steel in a wedge. Ie, a wedge requires infinitely more strokes than a hollow.

This can be compensated for by raising the spine off the stone, most popularly accomplished by adding a couple layers of electrical tape. However, doing so will increase the angle of the actual edge, making it more obtuse.

 

[Kees]

You need to know where you are at.

You can try thumb nail test to see if your bevel is OK. And use bevel marker test to see if the entire bevel on either side makes good contact with the hone. Only if your razor passes both tests you know your bevel is OK and you can move up the grit ladder. If not: back to the 1K hone or even lower grit.

Wedges are not harder to hone, it only takes more time to remove more metal.

 

[The Knize]

Thanks. That is all very helpful

<the two sides need to meet so that the edge is less than half micrometer wide>

Good point. Along with Leighton's point that one needs to take lots more steel off, I think this must be the issue. It had not occured to me that I had not gotten the sides to "meet." Pretty elementary. I think I am getting good consistent contact with the hone across the length of the blade, I just need to keep going.

<This can be compensated for by raising the spine off the stone, most popularly accomplished by adding a couple layers of electrical tape. However, doing so will increase the angle of the actual edge, making it more obtuse. >

I think you and I have discussed more obtuse angles in the past. As I understand it they do not necessary cause any problems, other than not being quite as sharp, but still being plenty sharp, and may make the edge hold up longer between honings--do I have that correct?

If one hones with electrical tape, does one have to change what one does in stropping? I mean in going through this process I assume one keeps the tape on through the final stropping, etc. What I mean is that does one have to do something special re stropping day to day? I assume I would not have to retape it every day just to strop, but I guess I would be stropping on a different angle than what was honed.

Thanks!

 

[leighton]

I think you and I have discussed more obtuse angles in the past. As I understand it they do not necessary cause any problems, other than not being quite as sharp, but still being plenty sharp, and may make the edge hold up longer between honings--do I have that correct?

If one hones with electrical tape, does one have to change what one does in stropping? I mean in going through this process I assume one keeps the tape on through the final stropping, etc. What I mean is that does one have to do something special re stropping day to day? I assume I would not have to retape it every day just to strop, but I guess I would be stropping on a different angle than what was honed.

Thanks!

That is *my* take on a more obtuse angle. Its the same exact principle as knives. A shallower angle is (or at least is perceived) to be "sharper." However, its also structurally weaker.

How exactly this translates into razors...we just have to try it out for ourselves.

Anyway, I'll share my theory about wedges that I've been thinking about lately. Examining pictures of wedges and hone wear, as well as knife sharpening techniques, I think that way back in the day razors were sharpened like knives. After all, they are basically a specialized form of knife.

I think the spine was lifted off the hone, and that is why full wedges and what we call wedges were never really a problem for the people of the past. But then over time, people realized that by keeping the spine on the hone, it took a variable out of the equation, and probably the most variable, variable (human input). Thus, the hollow grind was born. The manufacturer would hollow out the face of the razor, allowing the spine to sit flat on the hone and not have a 2mm bevel. As technology advanced, the double wheel grinder was deemed to be more efficient at grinding out a razor in terms of time. And this led to the end of Sheffield razors.

 

[GsSixgun]

NOS wedges....
Although these are rare when you have honed a few thousand razors you will find them...
You will learn that most of the problems with honing wedges is the previous person on the hones...
You have to work through all those old bevels first then put your edge on there.. An NOS old school wedge hones just as fast as any hollow...

The best way I have found is actually the heel forward 45+ degree honing stroke this lets you feel the imperfections in the surface as you hone...
I know everyone says the Rolling/Rocking X but honestly that is not a stroke for most people.... You start lifting the spine and you are right back to square one with an uneven bevel... The heel forward is way more consistant... Honest try it yourself and see...

Now after doing quite a bit of research on the lifted spine theory, (there is an old thread of mine on this on SRP) I actually found, and Lee/Hoglahoo found some hints that there were actually honing aids for lifting the spine evenly while honing... Pretty much like a slip on frame back, we are still always on the lookout for more solid proof...

 

[gugi]

You will learn that most of the problems with honing wedges is the previous person on the hones...
You have to work through all those old bevels first then put your edge on there.. An NOS old school wedge hones just as fast as any hollow...

That's right. For example the big 9/8 wedge that I gave Lee has bevel thinner than most vintage full hollows that I've seen.
Or my John Barber, or that other wedge that stayed unwanted in the b/s/t for almost a month...

It also depends on how tough the steel is, some of these hone quite quickly.

Putting multiple layers of tape in order to speed up the honing - now that's something I really don't like. I don't view honing as a race, not to mention that if you'd be putting many layers of tape I think you better do some simple math first. If you're thinking it's the same as doing double bevel you'll likely be unpleasantly surprised, because it really isn't.

 

[The Knize]

Wow, I am more than honored at the level of responses I have gotten here. I so much appreciate the time and the expertise I know these represent. I will do my best to absorb all of the hard achieved wisdom being offered up here. It may take me a bit to absorb it all much less apply it.

I think I get most of it, except:

<not to mention that if you'd be putting many layers of tape I think you better do some simple math first. If you're thinking it's the same as doing double bevel you'll likely be unpleasantly surprised, because it really isn't.>

Believe me I am not thinking anything is "the same as doing double bevel"! This is because I probably do not know enough to have expectations! To the extent I think I know what a double bevel is--and if I were shy about being wrong I never would have started this thread--I do not think I would be thinking that a more obtuse bevel would have the same function as a double bevel. Is the thought that if one goes too obtuse, the razor really will not be sharp enough?

My sense is that the initial advice is dead on. From everything I can see I am getting a nice, even "bevel" going across the full length of the blade. Talking something less than 1/16th inch wide ("tall" might be the better word). The spine seems to follow the edge of the blade very precisely, so keeping the spine on the hone seems to guide the process very nicely. Perhaps the blade is not quire as wedgy as I was thinking, because I do not think I will end up with a bevel that is shocking wide. But I do think I have simply not yet gotten the two sides of the bevel to come together. That there is still flat or rounded steel separating the two angled sides of the very edge of the blade. it does seem like I should have figured that out earlier but like you all have said, one can end up removing quite a bit of steel compared to a full hollow, and that takes some time. (I may end up eating all of these words, of course.)

gsSixgun, your tips on lifting the spine seem very helpful, and the concept that what is really necessary it to overcome previous honing efforts, is really helpful. Leighton, your theory on wedges historically having been honed more like a knife would have been makes some sense to me, although I am not getting how NOS wedges and some wedges period, need a tiny bevel, unless the spine is really wide or something, which seems to be the same idea as making the spine wider with tape, which gugi seems to disagree with doing, yet also represents that many wedges do not take any wider a bevel than a full hollow, absolutely sans tape!

Anyway, I will kept after this until I get it right. Seems like a well made razor. Warrants from "their Majesties," etc. Does the plural on "Majesties" mean that this razor is pre-1861, given that the Prince Consort, Prince Albert, died in 1861 and Queen Victoria never remarried, or does the plural refer to the series of warrants or whatever they are called from Englands kings and Victoria that Joseph Rodgers and Sons received?

I take it that the answer to my question about whether if I hone with tape I need to strop with tape is "of course not you dumb rookie!"

Can't thank you all enough!

 

[richmondesi]

No you don't need to strop with tape.

I never hone with more than one piece of tape, and only then if there is spine work or gold wash. I agree with Glen on this.

 

[gugi]

The width of the bevel depends on the geometry of the razor - that's why doing the simple math is useful - you can find out exactly how much width i.e. time you'll save with multiple layers of tape.

As far as I remember there hasn't been any different wording of the warrant, all of my razors I believe have the plural.

Keeping the tape for stropping is a good question that we apparently missed earlier - it isn't necessary, the strop has more than enough give to compensate for the angle difference on the order of a degree. You will need to put the tape back if you would touch up the razor back on a hone.

 

[The Knize]

No you don't need to hone with tape.

I never hone with more than one piece of tape, and only then if there is spine work or gold wash. I agree with Glen on this.

I hear you, and Glen. Although, I am not completely convinced that with some wedge razors one more or less by necessity as I read it, in part perhaps due to the honing efforts of those that have gone before, will end up having to create an especially large/wide bevel, and that by using tape one can reduce the size of that bevel, and the accompanying extra steel removal work required by using tape, which if used reasonably, still results in a completely reasonable edge.

I suspect I would not have to create a truly heroic sized bevel on this particular razor in order to get a good bevel and a good edge without using tape. On the other hand, I seem some utility and no likelihood of harm in making the bevel a bit more oblique than reliance strictly what honed with the spine in full contact with the hone all the time without tape might produce. I really have no basis for believing this to be so other than what I am reading on this thread, but does make some intuitive sense to me that back in the day folks have have honed their Sheffiedls without having the spine full contact all the time with the hone, and that this was an innovation more related to full hollow blades. It is true that one does not hone a knife with the blade in full contact with the hone!

Really appreciate the thoughts and help though. I am no expert. I am not surprised when true experts have a few disagreements though. I think it tend to advance the craft!

 

[The Knize]

The width of the bevel depends on the geometry of the razor - that's why doing the simple math is useful - you can find out exactly how much width i.e. time you'll save with multiple layers of tape.

As far as I remember there hasn't been any different wording of the warrant, all of my razors I believe have the plural.

Keeping the tape for stropping is a good question that we apparently missed earlier - it isn't necessary, the strop has more than enough give to compensate for the angle difference on the order of a degree. You will need to put the tape back if you would touch up the razor back on a hone.

Thanks. That is very useful and clear. I probably should have been able to figure out what doing the simple math meant. I am pretty patient. I guess I have time to hone away for quite a long time, if I have to. I have not had to do this so often so that it seems a chore. In fact it seems very pleasent if it seems like I am developing a skill rather than, say, ruining a good piece of Sheffield steel! But as I read what you are saying, using some tape would say some time and effort, and would not produce and appreciably inferior bevel and edge, and there is no need to have a truly large bevel, if that seemed to be what it took for this particular razor. So I will check out the simple math. I am guessing that at least one layer of tape is going to be a reasonable idea.

For that matter the spine does not look like it has excessive hone wear to me, but it could be that over the years it became thinner than it really should have. Who knows where a razor like this one has been!

 

[richmondesi]

I hear you, and Glen. Although, I am not completely convinced that with some wedge razors one more or less by necessity as I read it, in part perhaps due to the honing efforts of those that have gone before, will end up having to create an especially large/wide bevel, and that by using tape one can reduce the size of that bevel, and the accompanying extra steel removal work required by using tape, which if used reasonably, still results in a completely reasonable edge.

I suspect I would not have to create a truly heroic sized bevel on this particular razor in order to get a good bevel and a good edge without using tape. On the other hand, I seem some utility and no likelihood of harm in making the bevel a bit more oblique than reliance strictly what honed with the spine in full contact with the hone all the time without tape might produce. I really have no basis for believing this to be so other than what I am reading on this thread, but does make some intuitive sense to me that back in the day folks have have honed their Sheffiedls without having the spine full contact all the time with the hone, and that this was an innovation more related to full hollow blades. It is true that one does not hone a knife with the blade in full contact with the hone!

Really appreciate the thoughts and help though. I am no expert. I am not surprised when true experts have a few disagreements though. I think it tend to advance the craft!

don't get me confused with experts

 

[The Knize]

don't get me confused with experts

I am down so far on the learning curve that everything ("everyone"?) looks like "up" to me! grin

 

[GsSixgun]

1/16 in bevel on an older wedge is no big deal at all, heck I have done some in the 1/4 inch range

1 layer of tape is always fine in my book, and don't forget that 1 layer not only protects the spine but it also evens out many of the old problems in the spine...

When it comes to stropping, I would say that the guys are right, and you do not need any tape, within reason, there are some people that use multiple layers of tape as in 3-5, I have never tested anything like that myself... But at those levels I would begin to suspect the edge, one layer you are fine AFAIK and as far as I have tested...

I think you were mislead by the analogy of knife honing, the razors were most likely lifted by a fake frame-back as in a honing aid... Imagine a piece of spring steel that slides onto the spine and keeps it at a preset level just like the spine does on a hollow grind.... This is what Lee and I were searching for, this would put the razors bevel angle in the 25 degree range rather than the lower then 20 degrees that is more accepted... this theory also brings up the question of stropping again.... Just so many unknowns lost in the Mysts of time

 

[The Knize]

Thanks. I should be reading more carefully. I understand better re the honing aid for "lifting" the spine. Really would make sense. I like that lost in the mists of time line of thinking. I had wondered in the past whether we weren't likely shaving with better edges than back in the day. But maybe not. We sure are not laying brick like they used to! I read an article years ago--I think it was in The Atlantic or something like that or maybe Scientific American--that talked about how much technology had been lost over the years. I think it was to the effect, for instance, that not only do we not really know how they buiilt things like the pyramids, we did not know how they buillt the cathedrals in the middle ages, and there is a lot about stone work in the 19th centrury that we would not know how to recreate. So it makes sense that we have lost razor technology, too. Thanks!

 

[leighton]

When I said "honed like a knife" and "spine lifted" I meant only a mm off the hone. Pretty much the equivalent distance of 2-3 layers of tape or the distance of the "honing aid."

I do believe the honing aid existed, I think there is a patent on it. However, the lack of such tools still in existence today suggests they were not widely used. One would think that the tool would still exist with the razor, and if each razor came with one, there would be a lot more around today.

Well, unless they were made of wood, then they might have all disintegrated. But wood doesn't make much sense from a mechanical perspective. I suppose they might have all been worn away from so much honing as well, but if they did have a finite lifespan, one would imagine you could buy replacements for the tool.

Either case, I think they could have and probably did exist. I am only questioning the prevalence.



As for NOS wedges. Do they normally come with zero spine wear? Last NOS wedge I heard about started out life with no hone/spine wear, then the owner didn't use tape and was unpleasantly surprised with the width of the bevel and spine wear. I am only asking to further my own understanding of these really old razors and how they may or may not have been honed by those who came before.

 

[GsSixgun]

The one thing you have to realize is that unlike we, that pursue this hobby to the extreme, our ancestors did not... They shaved, or were shaved, thats it.... They had no more care in the razors than most men do today with their Muck 97 throw aways....

They touched up their razor on their barber's hones and when that didn't work they took it to the Cutler or perhaps their local Barber who honed it up for them... Or they went to the Merchantile store and bought another... I would imagine that the people who had the "Honing" tools were these same people.. "The Honemiester" of their day not every Tom ,Dick ,and Harry so to speak....

I could be all wrong but somehow I don't think so...

 

[leighton]

Good theory. Also workable.

Jw, have you found any? I'd really like to see a picture of one. I ask because I was confused as to whether you actually found one. The way I read your earlier post was that you haven't yet. Did I read that wrong?

Also, did you try searching the old patents? Just a patent sketch or description would be interesting as well.