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GD66 Bevel Set - How to

First, I applaud your determination, @TheBeast!

Secondly, @Slash McCoy makes an important point about taking a break to mull things over.

On one hand, you want to consciously understand what you are doing but on the other hand you want to subconsciously trust what you are doing.

In the end, you are rubbing steel on stone trying to shape a bevel and then remove scratches from the previous stone. Feeling the edge of the blade on the stone and watching the edge displace/undercut water (liquid) should help you achieve this.

But why is it so difficult sometimes?

In a perfect world, the blade has a perfectly straight edge with a 17.5 degree bevel. You lay the blade on the stone and evenly rub the blade on the stone applying the appropriate amount of pressure on the edge and spine. Let's call this the basic theme.

If you don't only buy NOS Filarmonica razors, this is often not the case. And here we enter the world of variations on the theme like a blade with a smile, an uneven grind or warp, a chipped edge, a bevel whose angle is too acute to hold an edge, etc.

And this is why people measure bevel angles, use rolling x-strokes, etc.
 
Is that after 8k or 3k, photos in post 41?

How you flip the razor does not matter, I flip the razor spine first without issue, as do many folks, just do not hit the edge on the stone.

I am more concerned with the random angled X stria, (circle stria, I believe) in post beginning at 34, up to 39 and even some light random stria is visible in post 41.

All that random X stria should easily be removed in 10-20 laps on the 3k. There is no need to do “hundreds” of laps.

When addressing a honing issue, remove as many variables as possible. Honing, in-hand creates an additional variable. Place the stone on an elevated stone holder, a rubber holder, block of wood or another stone to give your hands clearance and steady the stone.

I suspect that you are not using enough pressure. You should be able to easily bevel set a razor in 10-20 circles and 20-40 laps, with 10-15 additional finish laps.

1k circle stria should easily be removed completely from the back of the bevel to the edge in 10-20 laps, completely. That the X stria remains after many laps, I suspect you are not using enough pressure.

I use a fair amount of pressure doing circles, pressure for the first 10 laps and lighten up for the next 10. Finish laps are with lite pressure.

Starting a new stone, first 10 with pressure, the next 10 with lighter pressure and finish laps with light pressure. These are ballpark numbers, you do as many as you need.

Do not do short strokes, do full strokes, and do more of an X stroke from corner to corner. Start with the heel on the stone, come straight down so the heel remains on the stone, the toe may be off the stone. After about 1.5- 2 inches start to curve the stroke, so that you shift the pressure across the blade from heel to toe, (imagine a marble on the razor at the heel and you want to roll the marble smoothly and slowly to the toe at the bottom of the stone), the toe ends about mid stone at the bottom, not the corner. The same stroke is use through the entire progression.

Also, your stone appears dry, use a squirt bottle, and keep a puddle on the stone, if needed add more water to keep the stone flooded.

The goal of the rolling X stroke is to shift the pressure from the heel to the toe, that is the rolling part of the stroke. You are not doing X strokes and your heel is not on the stone at all. If you continue to hone that way you will make a frown, may have already. It’s an easy fix.

There is no right or wrong way to hone, hand-held, how you flip, which stroke, whatever works. But I think lack of pressure is your main issue and honing with the stone on the bench will allow you to adjust your pressure easier. I have taught a number of folks to hone in-person, almost to a man, lack of pressure has been an issue. They read forums where weight of the blade honing is mantra, but if you do, you will need to do hundreds of laps.

Try different techniques and find what works for you, and likely it will not work for all razors, you have to adjust to hone the razor as it needs to be honed.

Use an X stroke, heel on the stone, end toe tip in the middle of the stone.

More pressure, start heavy, finish light with each stone.

Roll your pressure.

More water.

Stone on the bench.
Post #41 is after 3k. I was on the 8k for a while before those pictures, but I got back to 4k since I had deeper stria remaining on 8k.

I'll try more techniques today. After watching a few DrMatt videos, I understood it is tíme to experiment more. No trouble with Pressure if I have a good sharpie result.
 
Removing sharpie ink and deep stria are two different things. All that deep stria should have been easily removed by the 3k in 10-20 laps.

Check you edge for a frown, get that heel on the stone.
 
Removing sharpie ink and deep stria are two different things. All that deep stria should have been easily removed by the 3k in 10-20 laps.

Check you edge for a frown, get that heel on the stone.
I did not detect a frown, but just to made sure, I used mor profound rolling strokes, following your advice.

I decided to start over from the 1K. I used some pressure, but focused it not on pressing the whole razor down, rather torquing towards the edge. I may still have some deep scrathces from the sandpaper. Removing the 1k stria wasn't exactly quick, but it was for sure more effective:

1K photos lost unfortunately... but stria looked very much even

3k first few laps:
GD 3K heavy - still some deep.jpg


3k another few laps:
GD 3K heavy- should be good.jpg


GD 3K heavy 2.jpg
 
8k was quite succesfull, but there are some extremely deep scratches, that were sort of hidden by 1k stria I guess. I was sure to give the bevels some tough love by torquing the razor towards the edge. 1k looked very clean, so did the 3k, with some room for improvement.

I'll try falling back to the 3k once more. If it doesn't work I'll finnish the progression and test shave.

8K:
20230124-184510-016.jpg
 
One more cycle with 3k followed by 8k polished the bevels "better". Still, very deep scratches remain.

My biggest lesson so far: no more sandpaper or DMT usage for honing.

8K:
20230124-190407-260.jpg


few mm to the side...

20230124-190413-807.jpg


I'll do one more cycle on the 8k, finnish on the 12k and test shave. I reckon it will shave okay. On my next razor, I don't want to see any more deep scratches. And I guess I won't since I will never again hone on the sandpaper or the DMT.
 
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rbscebu

Girls call me Makaluod
One more cycle with 3k followed by 8k polished the bevels "better". Still, very deep scratches remain.

My biggest lesson so far: no more sandpaper or DMT usage for honing.

8K:
View attachment 1593607

few mm to the side...

View attachment 1593609

I'll do one more cycle on the 8k, finnish on the 12k and test shave. I reckon it will shave okay. On my next razor, I don't want to see any more deep scratches. And I guess I won't since I will never again hone on the sandpaper or the DMT.
Remember, looks don't shave. Only the shave test counts.

Unfortunately your current traditional SR shaving experience may not yet allow you to fully judge the results of your honing.
 
Unfortunately your current traditional SR shaving experience may not yet allow you to fully judge the results of your honing.
Very true. I will for now just look for the ability of the edge to remove hair from the face while the face is lathered up. Closeness of the shave and comfort will be evaluated later on with some acquired SR shaving skills.
 
For my GD66 bevel set, I've had to go down to my Atoma 600 to really remove the metal. I spent hours on my Shapton 1k and 1.5k but the edge doesn't get quite sharp enough. It still cuts arm hair but is very tuggy/hesitant in cutting. When I spend 15-20 min on the Atoma 600, I feel the difference and is more assured that the bevel is set.

The scratches may be tougher to erase but I'd rather get that sharp edge/bevel set rather than finishing up the razor and feeling disappointed. That's been my experience.

Also, I find that the shoulder rides easily on GDs and the edge doesn't quite reach all the way to the toe. I dremel off both toe and shoulder to make for an even contact on the edge and be careful not to hone up on the shoulder but only have the edge on the stone.
 
For my GD66 bevel set, I've had to go down to my Atoma 600 to really remove the metal. I spent hours on my Shapton 1k and 1.5k but the edge doesn't get quite sharp enough. It still cuts arm hair but is very tuggy/hesitant in cutting. When I spend 15-20 min on the Atoma 600, I feel the difference and is more assured that the bevel is set.

The scratches may be tougher to erase but I'd rather get that sharp edge/bevel set rather than finishing up the razor and feeling disappointed. That's been my experience.

Also, I find that the shoulder rides easily on GDs and the edge doesn't quite reach all the way to the toe. I dremel off both toe and shoulder to make for an even contact on the edge and be careful not to hone up on the shoulder but only have the edge on the stone.
Yup, learned All that when I started honing my first Titan SR, then I transfered the knowledge to the GD. Still I pretty much trashed both those razors by narrowing the blade by a considerable amount, making then into more of a French Point than. They both were round Point.

GD now has a perfect bevel off the 3k.
 

rbscebu

Girls call me Makaluod
I have only been honing SRs for a little over three years, including about 100 bevel-sets. Still learning new things.

It's an addiction.
 
For my GD66 bevel set, I've had to go down to my Atoma 600 to really remove the metal. I spent hours on my Shapton 1k and 1.5k but the edge doesn't get quite sharp enough. It still cuts arm hair but is very tuggy/hesitant in cutting. When I spend 15-20 min on the Atoma 600, I feel the difference and is more assured that the bevel is set.

The scratches may be tougher to erase but I'd rather get that sharp edge/bevel set rather than finishing up the razor and feeling disappointed. That's been my experience.

Also, I find that the shoulder rides easily on GDs and the edge doesn't quite reach all the way to the toe. I dremel off both toe and shoulder to make for an even contact on the edge and be careful not to hone up on the shoulder but only have the edge on the stone.
You can grind in a new bevel on a heavy kitchen knife in a fraction of this time. I have not honed a GD, but do you need to take off this much steel to set the bevel on these thin grinds? Is there any heat threat issues at the edge from the factory?
 
You can grind in a new bevel on a heavy kitchen knife in a fraction of this time. I have not honed a GD, but do you need to take off this much steel to set the bevel on these thin grinds? Is there any heat threat issues at the edge from the factory?
I think this is also a result of the warped blade. Even if you correct the spine by taping the edge, the edge will still be warped, but now with the straight spine you will no longer reach the edge properly.
 
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You can grind in a new bevel on a heavy kitchen knife in a fraction of this time. I have not honed a GD, but do you need to take off this much steel to set the bevel on these thin grinds? Is there any heat threat issues at the edge from the factory?
My opinion on this is that sa begginers, we put in very deep scratches with our low grit DMTs or sandpaper. They need LOTS of work to get out.

As for the amount of steel removed, setting a bevel with the shoulder/stabilizer on the hone is impossible, but it seems to getting close. It is endless cycle of wasting steel. This razor often needs modifications before honing such as moving the heel corner forwards and or grinding the protruding shoulder/stabilizer. In my case, I spent way too much time grinding trying to set a bevel on the stabilizer/shoulder. Only after fixing the geometry was I succesfull. But it's okay to learn it on a 4$ gold dollar, this lesson was more valuable than the whole razor.
 
setting a bevel with the shoulder/stabilizer on the hone is impossible, but it seems to getting close
Why do you need to have the stabilizer on the stone. Just angle the razor with heel leading when you start your stroke. On new razors it is not uncommon that part of the spine close to the stabilizer is not honed from the factory. If you ride into this you lift the spine an hone in a warp.
 
Why do you need to have the stabilizer on the stone. Just angle the razor with heel leading when you start your stroke. On new razors it is not uncommon that part of the spine close to the stabilizer is not honed from the factory. If you ride into this you lift the spine an hone in a warp.
You do not need the stabilizer on the hone, better yet, you must keep it off the hone.

I'm sure this is trivial for someone that's been honing for years. For some trying to hone the first time (me), it is incomprehensible. People kept telling me to keep the stabilizer off the hone and I thought: "okay simple" and then proceeded to hone with the stabilizer on the hone even with heel leading strokes without even knowing. It took time to learn how to actually do it.
 
You can grind in a new bevel on a heavy kitchen knife in a fraction of this time. I have not honed a GD, but do you need to take off this much steel to set the bevel on these thin grinds? Is there any heat threat issues at the edge from the factory?
I'm not sure if setting a bevel on a kitchen knife vs straight razor is the same thing. When I set the bevel on a straight razor, I'm looking for it cut arm hair easily. Just barely touch it and it cuts off the hair. I may be taking it too far on the lower grits but I've had the best edges when done this way. Whenever the edge is hesitating off the bevel set, I've had poor results in the end.

What would be your definition of bevel set on a kitchen knife?
 

rbscebu

Girls call me Makaluod
I have yet to have to hone a blade where the edge extends into the stabiliser area. I'm not saying they don't exist, just that I have never experienced them.

That being said, I have honed blades where the edge extends to very close (within 2mm to 3mm) to the stabiliser area. Indeed, some of my earliest blades were like that. This was actually beneficial for me as it quickly taught me to pay more attention to the position of the blade on the honing surface. This knowledge assisted me in developing my honing skills.
 
Why do you need to have the stabilizer on the stone. Just angle the razor with heel leading when you start your stroke. On new razors it is not uncommon that part of the spine close to the stabilizer is not honed from the factory. If you ride into this you lift the spine an hone in a warp.
You can angle the razor with heel leading but I find that the edge is still affected if the stabilizer is too high/fat. I think you can use extreme angle only on a narrow part of the stone but I'd rather fix the stabilizer than trying to hone in the uncomfortable way.
 
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