GC.68OC, GOLD GRANDE, YAQI CHROME MELLON - A JOURNEY

[Rosseforp]

My early to mid 1940's Regent Tech.

My 1955 Gillette Red Tip
The Red Tip with a .026" gap is supposed to be the most aggressive of the US made TTO's.
It is easy to see why your Regent is more efficient.

My 1955 Flare Tip
The .026" gap is the same as my Red Tip, but a slightly milder shave.

My early English Tech
Also a .026" gap, but the most efficient Gillette I have.
With a shim the gap is .032, and feels almost the same as my GC 84-P.

I does seem the English razors are more aggressive than their US made counterparts.

 

[Rosseforp]

Starting to see quite a few camps in the world of sharp. I had one balsa shave a very sharp blade but less comfort. TOO MANY stone options available. Honing has not been attempted yet. I would like to sample any opportunities available. Still standing in the middle of the candy store. It all looks sweet.

FIFY

John, sharp doesn't necessarily mean more comfort. It is the level of sharp that fits your beard.
I like to call the levels:

0)Coticule
1)Sharp
2)Wicked Sharp
3)Keen
4)Stupid Sharp

Coticules are interesting stones, I have not figured mine out quite yet. I need to get another one, just not yet.
You have all of the stones in your kit to achieve levels 1-4 already, when you get proficient with them, then it is time for more candy!
When you can get your razor Stupid Sharp, then you can pull the edge back a little for more comfort.
That is only achieved by trial and error.

You did say that all of your stones are splash and go, are they all Super Stones?

 

[thombrogan]

The balsa is weird. Mono-crystalline; rarely found finer than 0.25μ; is supposedly rough feeling (which I don’t doubt). Poly-crystalline is supposedly mostly smooth at 0.5μ, rough at 0.25μ, and superlatively smooth at 0.1μ and is available in even finer grades if 200,000 grit is too coarse for you. And then there are the substrates of balsa, nano cloth, rhodia paper, kangaroo skin, Mylar, cowhide, horsehide, steel, felt… And let’s not forget that diamond isn’t the only abrasive in town. Chromium oxide, ferric oxide, cerium oxide, boron carbide, aluminum oxide, and cubic boron nitride are among the popular rivals with some people even taking slurry from water stones (natural and synthetic) and transferring it to substrates mentioned above to change its behavior as an abrasive/polishing agent or spritzing the top of those stones with a touch of CBN or poly diamond for even different cutting actions.

And that’s just the part over which the end user has control.

The steel of the razor sets its own preferences and limits. Is its martensite mostly lath or plate? How tempered is it? How dispersed and small are its carbides? There’s always retained austenite and pearlite, but are their amounts small enough to not interfere with edge taking and edge holding? Ultimately, that stuff only reveals itself in sharpening and use and is mostly beyond our concern. If it gets sharp, shaves well, and its edge-holding matches one’s skills with a hanging strop, any boxes that mattered were checked.

 

[Esox]

I used a Gillette Trac 2 sporadically until the mid 1980's. I never got along with them, ATG was completely out of the question, never got a close shave, maybe I didn't use enough pressure. Switched to a series of electric meatball grinders until last year.

I did the same from the advent of the Mach 3 rotating with rotary electrics. I never got a good shave with either of them but with really sharp blades in a rotary I at least had a comfortable shave. The blades would wear and dull pretty quickly though and I ended up sharpening my own after it stalled during a shave. Talk about tug and hurt! You havent really been bitten by a razor until you've stalled a rotary lol.

My 1955 Gillette Red Tip
The Red Tip with a .026" gap is supposed to be the most aggressive of the US made TTO's.
It is easy to see why your Regent is more efficient.
View attachment 1176457
My 1955 Flare Tip
The .026" gap is the same as my Red Tip, but a slightly milder shave.
View attachment 1176458
My early English Tech
Also a .026" gap, but the most efficient Gillette I have.
With a shim the gap is .032, and feels almost the same as my GC 84-P.
View attachment 1176459
I does seem the English razors are more aggressive than their US made counterparts.

I'm having a hard time seeing the differences between the Red Tip and the 55 Flare Tip. It even looks as though the Flare Tip has slightly more blade exposure.

The nice thing about a post war Tech is the fact that its a rigid enough design so that I can start a shave ATG. I cant do that with any TTO's.

The most efficient Gillettes I've used are the NEW SC and Old Types. Both are equally efficient, 2 1/2 pass BBS with a Polsilver blade, but because the Old Type has less gap, its a more comfortable shave. I really dsont like how my skin is forced into the gap and my skin doesnt like the steeper angle of edge to skin as it travels though that gap. If I want a steeper angle, I'll adjust the angle I'm using the razor with.

If you want a more efficient Tech, find one made in Canada. My Canadian Tech is the most efficient Tech I've used but I still dont think of any Tech as an efficient razor.

I did a comparison on British vs US Gillettes a while ago.

British vs USA Made Razors (PIC HEAVY) - https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/threads/british-vs-usa-made-razors-pic-heavy.522133/

The Brit Flare Tip Rocket, outside of the handle, is apparently identical to the US SS yet they shave very much differently. The British made Gillette TTO's are of outstanding quality and you can feel that difference just holding them in your hand. The TTO mechanism is also different. The British TTO's are so finely made the TTO mechanism feels almost hydraulic in operation. The British made Gillette TTO's are different animals and you'll pay a lot of money for a nice one. The British Bulldogs are especially cherished and respected.

 

[JoWolf]

FIFY

John, sharp doesn't necessarily mean more comfort. It is the level of sharp that fits your beard.
I like to call the levels:

0)Coticule
1)Sharp
2)Wicked Sharp
3)Keen
4)Stupid Sharp

Coticules are interesting stones, I have not figured mine out quite yet. I need to get another one, just not yet.
You have all of the stones in your kit to achieve levels 1-4 already, when you get proficient with them, then it is time for more candy!
When you can get your razor Stupid Sharp, then you can pull the edge back a little for more comfort.
That is only achieved by trial and error.

You did say that all of your stones are splash and go, are they all Super Stones?
[/QUOTE]
Right Doug 1,3,8,&12 all Nanny splashers. Not so sure as to the company branding and designation of the stones. Japanese Kitchen Knives, Wusthof, Sharpening Wheststone Stones, in Canada - PaulsFinest.com - https://www.paulsfinest.com/ are the good folks I purchased from, except for the 8K, which is from Amazon. Paul’s has an 8K Super Stone not called Fuji but the dimensions and colour are the same for both. I’m not going to check with the company. It might be the same as my Feather blades yellow and black packages but the same blade. Please call my 8K a Fuji

Coticules are interesting stones, I have not figured mine out quite yet.

Not an uncommon remark by quite a few gents.

You are right Doug. I’m plenty stoned for the time being. The 4 splashers, the balsa, which I will just use .5 micron to begin with, keeping things simple at the start. I also have my Father-in-laws shave hone. I want to lap it and bevel the edges before I use it. I am curious to see what a shave hone edge feels like. Doug what is your opinion on lapping out that hone? The edges are chipped, I would never use it in it’s present condition. I won’t be able to get through all that stuff until well into the new year. That’s another dozen shaves for me. In the meantime to keep my hands busy I‘m doing a hand job on one of my horse strop blanks. I think I can get the same soft suppleness I enjoyed with my baseball gloves. Strop porn always shows the strop flipped over in half on itself portraying soft limp suppleness. My horse is strong and erect, I need to beat him down some. And than there’s the cherry. A nice UK Linen Fire Hose Bench Strop. David @Blad who has generously put time, effort and skill into setting me up with my strops. Now a very hard to get your hands on linen fire hose. Thank you so much David. I’m good to go.

 

[JoWolf]

The balsa is weird. Mono-crystalline; rarely found finer than 0.25μ; is supposedly rough feeling (which I don’t doubt). Poly-crystalline is supposedly mostly smooth at 0.5μ, rough at 0.25μ, and superlatively smooth at 0.1μ and is available in even finer grades if 200,000 grit is too coarse for you. And then there are the substrates of balsa, nano cloth, rhodia paper, kangaroo skin, Mylar, cowhide, horsehide, steel, felt… And let’s not forget that diamond isn’t the only abrasive in town. Chromium oxide, ferric oxide, cerium oxide, boron carbide, aluminum oxide, and cubic boron nitride are among the popular rivals with some people even taking slurry from water stones (natural and synthetic) and transferring it to substrates mentioned above to change its behavior as an abrasive/polishing agent or spritzing the top of those stones with a touch of CBN or poly diamond for even different cutting actions.

And that’s just the part over which the end user has control.

The steel of the razor sets its own preferences and limits. Is its martensite mostly lath or plate? How tempered is it? How dispersed and small are its carbides? There’s always retained austenite and pearlite, but are their amounts small enough to not interfere with edge taking and edge holding? Ultimately, that stuff only reveals itself in sharpening and use and is mostly beyond our concern. If it gets sharp, shaves well, and its edge-holding matches one’s skills with a hanging strop, any boxes that mattered were checked.

That all sounds pretty scary Thom. Especially at Halloween. All grand pa had was a hone. We’ve come a long way redefining something so simple. I do think it’s a good thing and an awful lot of fun.

 

[thombrogan]

That all sounds pretty scary

That‘s why I’ve got some Bic Chrome Platinum on the way and keeping this all hypothetical for me.

 

[JoWolf]

That‘s why I’ve got some Bic Chrome Platinum on the way and keeping this all hypothetical for me.

Very enjoyable blade. I put them in second after the Feathers. A little smoother but a tad less sharp.

 

[Rosseforp]

I'm having a hard time seeing the differences between the Red Tip and the 55 Flare Tip. It even looks as though the Flare Tip has slightly more blade exposure.

The nice thing about a post war Tech is the fact that its a rigid enough design so that I can start a shave ATG. I cant do that with any TTO's.

I was seeing the same thing, Mike, so I loaded up each razor with a Derby and checked width of the blades when clamped. I also checked the gaps again, and got .028" with feeler gages. The blade width clamped of English Tech measured .853", the 55 Red Tip measured .850" and the 55 Flare Tip measured .847", which translates to each razor presenting the blade at a different angle.

Consider my DE1 which has a blade gap of .053". The width of the blade measured clamped is .833", and it is a very mild razor.
That gap is considerably greater than the ''Canadian Dime" Slim setting on #9, yet the DE1 is not prone to biting.

This leads me to believe that it is the angle the razor presents the design angle at, that defines whether the razor.

 

[Rosseforp]

that defines whether the razor.

Defines the Razor

 

[Esox]

This leads me to believe that it is the angle the razor presents the design angle at, that defines the razor.

Yep. I'd agree. Thats one of the most telling things between the R41 and the Fatip. The R41 blade angle is much steeper.

 

[Rosseforp]

Thanks Doug. I’ll get rubber cement. Still waiting for my balsa. I think they must be waiting for the tree to grow.

Just looked at the bottle of glue that I used and saw that it was Contact Cement, not rubber. Senior Citizen moment

 

[str8six]

I used rubber cement so can attest that works too. Figured that might make it easier to scrape off the last remnants of the balsa when I near the acrylic but I'm quite a ways off from needing to do that.

 

[Rosseforp]

And let’s not forget that diamond isn’t the only abrasive in town. Chromium oxide, ferric oxide, cerium oxide, boron carbide, aluminum oxide, and cubic boron nitride

Don't forget, some gents use plain balsa or newspaper as a strop. The different abrasives all have unique shapes, which does produce differing results in finishes.

How dispersed and small are its intercellular carbides ?

FIFY

Someone has been reading

http://foundrygate.com/upload/artigos/Carbidic%20Ductile%20Iron.pdf

 

[Rosseforp]

Right Doug 1,3,8,&12 all Nanny splashers. Not so sure as to the company branding and designation of the stones.

The 1k & 3k appear to be the Professional Series stones(previously known as chosera). I have an 800 chosera, it is a really nice stone, but I'm looking to add either a 2k or 3k, so I am interested in your thoughts on the 3k.

Your Fuji sounds like it is actually a finishing stone, so the 12k Super Stone should really polish the edge nice.
Be careful with the Super Stone, as it is much softer than your other 3 stones, and it is easy to dig into it with the edge if you are not paying attention.
Keep your kitchen knives away from it John!
I've only made a few laps on my 12k Super Stone since I bonded it to a ceramic tile, but I can already see the wear pattern on the stone is more consistent than before, so it looks like it might be getting some love.

I also have my Father-in-laws shave hone. I want to lap it and bevel the edges before I use it. I am curious to see what a shave hone edge feels like. Doug what is your opinion on lapping out that hone? The edges are chipped, I would never use it in it’s present condition.

My Grandfather's Raven hone wasn't chipped, but it was sure well worn. Now that it is nice and flat it appears to be in the 5k to 6k range. You can get an edge from it, but it needs some crox and diamond paste to smooth it out some. I can't imagine shaving off a barber hone without stropping these days

I think I can get the same soft suppleness I enjoyed with my baseball gloves.

Do you use glove oil?
I have a DuoSharp diamond plate that I use on kitchen knives and to lap my stones with. Atoma's are also supposed to be good for lapping stones.

 

[thombrogan]

Don't forget, some gents use plain balsa or newspaper as a strop. The different abrasives all have unique shapes, which does produce differing results in finishes.

Add variations in pressure, angle, direction, and repetition and they all provide a range of finishes. Humbles me that there are people getting sharper, smoother-cutting edges off a worn 325 grit Smith‘s from a Home Depot end cap than I can from meticulously moving from a 120 grit SiC stone through stones up to stropping on 1μ polishing cloth.

Someone has been reading

Did that once. Didn’t take. Carbide dispersal both at the boundaries and within the cells are important as are carbide sizes/shapes/constituents. I’m gaga over tungsten-rich steels (O1, Blue #2, DIN 1.2442), but not over tungsten carbides… But I know I don’t know.

I'm looking to add either a 2k or 3k

There’s a Chosera 2K hanging out around here. No base, with the red nagura. Several years ago, I oversoaked it and it was a little too soft to use. It’s been drying over the years and don’t know if magnesium bases eventually self-heal or if it’s forever a luxuriously-overpriced mudstone. Would you like to try it out?

 

[JoWolf]

This leads me to believe that it is the angle the razor presents the design angle at, that defines whether the razor

I think it is beneficial, educational, and interesting to delve into measurements and understand what may lead to performance or lack of. It is very important to listen to your face and skin feedback. The most important and final measurement. Quite a few dudes do not.

Just looked at the bottle of glue that I used and saw that it was Contact Cement, not rubber. Senior Citizen moment

No problemo Doug. I also ordered some two way tape. I’ll try the tape first. If I don’t like it, I’ll do the cement. Jason @str8six likes the rubber cement its all good.

Don't forget, some gents use plain balsa or newspaper as a strop. The different abrasives all have unique shapes, which does produce differing results in finishes.

FIFY

Someone has been reading

http://foundrygate.com/upload/artigos/Carbidic%20Ductile%20Iron.pdf

Very interesting article. Starting out with .5 micron paste to keep it real simple. My shave schedule allows six shaves a month. Too many irons in the fire can get confusing and blur results. An increased time line based on Comfort assures good results and understanding before going forward.

The 1k & 3k appear to be the Professional Series stones(previously known as chosera). I have an 800 chosera, it is a really nice stone, but I'm looking to add either a 2k or 3k, so I am interested in your thoughts on the 3k.

Doug I purchased the 1 & 3 because of excellent comments as strong performers for knives. I also realize the 3 would be nice for polishing the knives while not being necessary. It is however a nice step to have going to the 8 & 12 which are strictly polishing and strictly razor use only. I’ve been lucky enough to have had all four of my straight razors delivered to me with Excellent shave ready edges. I can not really use any of the stones yet on the razors and even if I could it will be my first effort.
The 3k I have only lapped. The kitchen knives I’ve sharpened on the 1k are the cheapies and did not bother trying to polish the edges I put on them. I will use the 3K on my Henkles when I get to them. I’ve only been aware of good comments on the 3k and in general a lot of respect for the Nanny splash and go stones.

Your Fuji sounds like it is actually a finishing stone, so the 12k Super Stone should really polish the edge nice.
Be careful with the Super Stone, as it is much softer than your other 3 stones, and it is easy to dig into it with the edge if you are not paying attention.
Keep your kitchen knives away from it John!
I've only made a few laps on my 12k Super Stone since I bonded it to a ceramic tile, but I can already see the wear pattern on the stone is more consistent than before, so it looks like it might be getting some love.

its good to hear that you have been able to rescue your 12k. Even the seller I purchased my stones from do not or will they sell the thinner versions. There have been a few negative comments I’ve come across. Obviously the Nanny people probably know about thin stone backing like the Norton folks. Interesting they do not incorporate it. Not very Japanese.

No fear of my 8 & 12k getting mixed up with kitchen knives. I won’t even let them in the same room together. I call it Social Distancing.

Add variations in pressure, angle, direction, and repetition and they all provide a range of finishes. Humbles me that there are people getting sharper, smoother-cutting edges off a worn 325 grit Smith‘s from a Home Depot end cap than I can from meticulously moving from a 120 grit SiC stone through stones up to stropping on 1μ polishing cloth.

Finesse goes a long ways Thom. I just hope I don’t have to dress for the occasion if and when I move out of the basement of my learner stones.

[/QUOTE]
Did that once. Didn’t take. Carbide dispersal both at the boundaries and within the cells are important as are carbide sizes/shapes/constituents. I’m gaga over tungsten-rich steels (O1, Blue #2, DIN 1.2442), but not over tungsten carbides… But I know I don’t know.

[/QUOTE]
I just understand the gaga part, the other stuff not so much.


There’s a Chosera 2K hanging out around here. No base, with the red nagura. Several years ago, I oversoaked it and it was a little too soft to use. It’s been drying over the years and don’t know if magnesium bases eventually self-heal or if it’s forever a luxuriously-overpriced mudstone. Would you like to try it out?
[/QUOTE]
Doug you gave the 12K a second chance. I’ve heard and read a few comments on over soaking. Any of my over soaking experiences have all been Hot Tub related. The splash and go stones were very interesting and appealing to me because of no soaking.

 

[JoWolf]

[/QUOTE]
My Grandfather's Raven hone wasn't chipped, but it was sure well worn. Now that it is nice and flat it appears to be in the 5k to 6k range. You can get an edge from it, but it needs some crox and diamond paste to smooth it out some. I can't imagine shaving off a barber hone without stropping these days

[/QUOTE]
What did you use to flatten the stone?
Would the crox and diamond paste change the characteristics of the stone?
Doug I don’t think the old dudes shaved without stropping.
As far as paste goes some of them probably didn’t even have tooth paste, or teeth.

Do you use glove oil?

I don’t know much about strops. If I were a younger dude I might not be concerned or worry about stiff hard leather. Learning how to strop a razor. The hard and the soft of new hide fashioned into a strop is a new world for me. I do know a new leather baseball glove sucked unless conditioning brought comfort with pliable softness to the field. I am only hand massaging it with oil off my shiny head (the big one) to break down and message the strop into a pliable state. At a softness level yet to be determined I intend on introducing a little mink oil into the backside with some heat for penetration. At this point I intend on further hand massaging to a yet to be determined softness. At this point I plan on doing some progressive dry sanding up to about 1000. At that point I will assess and decide if it’s good to go. Doug this is a path I’ve dreamed up. If you think something is crazy please comment. I’ve read comments on don’t use any oil to a little off your hand to retailers selling all kinds of strop creams and conditioners. I do know that dry leather can crack as it becomes brittle. A lot of people are into leather, I think they all prefer soft pliable regardless of end use.

I have a DuoSharp diamond plate that I use on kitchen knives and to lap my stones with. Atoma's are also supposed to be good for lapping stones.

I am going to start off with wet & dry 400 on my marble floor tile. Your experience with the dry on your 12k has me curious and I intend to do a dry run first. I used a Nagura 1000 to dress my 1k while sharpening my knives and liked it. Pretty much my total experience so far. I have watched DR Matt use a diamond plate for dressing his stones when honing. I don’t plan on getting too fancy or complicated in the early going. I also what to be very careful with grit cross contamination. I don’t think I’ll be doing enough honing to warrant much more than the marble lapping. I don’t know what an Atoma is.

 

[Rosseforp]

What did you use to flatten the stone?

I used my DMT DuoSharp to flatten the stone.

Would the crox and diamond paste change the characteristics of the stone?

I meant to use the crox and diamond paste on the blade after honing.

Doug I don’t think the old dudes shaved without stropping.

The paperwork that came with the Raven hone indicated no stropping was necessary. My trans and black arkies will spit hairs before stropping. Atoma is just another brand of diamond lapping hones.

The only straight I have that came shave~ready was my Dovo I got from Superior Shave, all it needed was to be stropped. I did, touch it up after the first shave with it. All of the rest of my straights I have had to start from the bevel. My 800 chosera does a great job on kitchen knives, but the striations it leaves take a long time to hone out on my next higher grit stone. That is why I am thinking of adding a 2k, but not sure I want to try one that has been oversoaked. I still have my 4k/8k norton, but it is awful soft.

One thing that I did learn was to spend more time on the lower grit stones before moving up. I can't tell you how many times I reset bevels and started the progression all over. All part of the learning process.

 

[thombrogan]

Finesse goes a long ways Thom. I just hope I don’t have to dress for the occasion if and when I move out of the basement of my learner stones.

Dressing when sharpening is highly recommended. Especially shoes.

I just understand the gaga part, the other stuff not so much.

The other stuff isn’t entirely important. Geometry cuts. Material properties assist.