+1, I would also recommend Cella!
frustrated with budget soaps
- Thread starter FireDragon76
- Start date
I started out on budget soaps because I wanted to save money. That ship has long since sailed, but I still have a mug of VDH deluxe. I hated it in puck form. Took it to a cheese grater and repacked it lightly into my mug and it loads much easier and performs much better. I don't use it much now simply because I developed SSAD and SCAD, but I won't get rid of it, because for the money, its a good performer!
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- #23
Yeah... I'm going to try the Arko some time this week. My experience with Derby shave cream is very good in terms of the performance, so I'm hoping the Arko soap is just as good. I also have a shipment of Godrej cream from India on the way to try. From the looks of the ingredients, it looks like its been designed for hard water.
I've had luck with Kiss My Face but it doesn't really lather very well in hard water. But then it doesn't need to because it is basically a goopy cream that you use in large amounts. I don't believe a cream has to lather a lot to get a great shave but a poor lather can be signs that something is off. With other creams when the lather is thin you get blade skip and drag. I'm sure if I had soft water VDH's slickness would be a different story altogether.
I may promote Williams in my rotation just because it lathers so well with moderate hard water. It's just got no protection and dries my face. Using a pre-shave oil gets past that, so its no big deal. I really struggled with Williams until I realized that the pre-shave oil was a necessary step when using it, at least if you have dry or sensitive skin as I do.
If I lived in my own place I'd definitely get a water softener, I've lived with soft water before and I especially appreciate it in the shower, but I rent an apartment with my wife and we have the water we have.
BTW, I'm posting a lot because I want to get my post count up so I can make some trades on the Gentleman's subforum... but I don't want to fill the threads with totally mindless questions.
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- #24
I think the secret is that I'm not using enough VDH soap when I load it up, and too much water. I'll try it again tomorrow. I'm too used to using a cream, just loading a tiny bit up and going, but when you load up with a brush on soap, it takes more work on the puck to load up the brush Also, the Omega brush I was using is white so I probably couldn't tell how much soap I was actually loading.
- Thread starter
- #25
Today I got a much nicer lather with VDH... but the shave was not good. I got a ridiculous amount of blade skipping using my Weishi and a Dorco 301 blade. And a few minor patches of razor burn. I ended up making a final third downward pass with my Gilette Guard just because I was tired of the Weishi/Dorco performance.
What I did differently- I lathered on the puck a lot more and I added almost no water. Then I lathered more in a bowl. VDH had more of the feel of a cream on my face (using Barbasol as a benchmark) but... I noticed it wasn't very slick feeling to my razor. I got the sensation of tugging on my whiskers and a few times the blade even skipped.
Tomorrow I will either try a cream or Arko, and a different blade/razor.
What I did differently- I lathered on the puck a lot more and I added almost no water. Then I lathered more in a bowl. VDH had more of the feel of a cream on my face (using Barbasol as a benchmark) but... I noticed it wasn't very slick feeling to my razor. I got the sensation of tugging on my whiskers and a few times the blade even skipped.
Tomorrow I will either try a cream or Arko, and a different blade/razor.
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Something else you could try if you are running on a budget, and or don't want to buy pre shaves. A spoonful of olive oil warmed in the microwave for a couple/few seconds then applied as a preshave. This goes back to my Pops and the William's in a coffee cup days when I was a kid. (dad never got his warmed) I still do it now and then, especially if I'm shaving a second time in less than 24 hours. Feels great, and it's free. (Basically)
I'd suggest staying away from the Dorco, as they are not so good. Try some Astra SPs or the Gillette Silver Blues. They are much better imho.
As for the soaps, I can't recommend Cella enough. It is ridiculously good.
Arko and Palmolive stick are very good as well and if you would like something without tallow, give Proraso creams a shot.
And one last thing: Ime, lathers need much water. What you describe with the VDH soap probably is absence of water in it. Make some test lathers and see how much water can VDH hold without breaking/getting runny. That is for me the sweet spot of any soap/cream. Besides imho creamy lather is a little overrated, as it rarely lets the razor glide freely.
Also, if you haven't already, give Marco's method a shot. It works wonders.
A stick of Arko will run a shade over $1 if you buy the box of 12. I liked the smell of the scented VDH luxury. As my first shave soap, the smell will be attached to me forever. Still, in cushion and especially in slickness, Arko is far superior to me. I also use MWF which cost way more than Arko and I don't think performs substantially better. It maybe just a touch slicker. While I don't have a terrible landolin allergy, it can make my face burn a pinch if it's at the end of a week full of shaves and I've been shaving too... 'much'. Sometimes I make an extra pass or two just to get to shave a little more. The Arko always works for me and it's also what I gift since I'm 99% sure it'll work for them.
- Thread starter
- #30
Its weird 'cause Dorco was popular years ago here for their longevity. I shaved with them a lot but then again I eventually gave up on the DE moved on to injectors. Maybe that explains something?
I actually am craving a Feather blade after that shave. Those things use to cut me like crazy but it would be better than razor burn. My Derby blades even shaved better than the Dorco.
I have the green and the red. I like the green when my skin is not razor burned from the previous day. Proraso seems to be a great value.
Do you know any good videos of VDH lathering? Maybe it's not supposed to look like Barbasol?
I'm thinking of keeping a shaving log in a spreadsheet and trying to figure out what works and what doesn't. I wish more folks here would try stuff like that, there is way too much guesswork about wet shaving.
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I'd suggest some mid-level creams like Taylor of Old Bond Street. $14 or so plus shipping. Good soaps/creams really don't cost that much on a per use basis. Live is too short to shave with ineffective soap.
I tried the Dorcos once and hated them. Many gentlemen in here don't like them either, considering there are alternatives.
I don't know about VDH, as I've never tried it, but I do know that if I go for a creamy lather I won't enjoy the shave. You should experiment with the product/water ratio to see what works for you.
One test I found to work is to make a lather and then scoop it up from my cheek with my hand, pressuring down on my skin. If after that my cheek is still slick and doesn't feel dry, I use it to shave.
Skip the lather videos. Develop face feel.
I am 100% serious. The blade and your face don't care what the lather looks like, and a lather can both look great and be way too dry at the same time.
+1 ... there is no correlation between good-looking lather and a great shave.
One soap that gave me easy, quick, great-smelling, rich-looking lather was Provence Sante. But the shave itself was rough and irritating. I assumed I had done something wrong, so I tried it twice again the next week and got the same results each time. Eventually, I had to ban it from my shave den, and its the ONLY product I ever had to do that to.
On the other hand, Musgo Real cream makes some very weak looking lather. I add so much water that it practically falls off my face. But the performance is legendary.
Here are my three rules for judging lather:
*Judge lather by its Quality, not its Quantity.
*Any lather that doesn't make direct contact with your whiskers is a moot point.
*If it gives you a good shave, then its good lather.
- Thread starter
- #35
I'd like to understand the science behind lather more... what is it and what it does. When I shaved with VDH the lather didn't seem to be hydrating my skin at all and there was little lubrication. So I'm guessing while it looked impressive, it was mostly air whipped into soap cream.
Mmmm... I'm figuring it out myself. From what I've learned thus far...
-Lots of soap + little bit of water = good.
-Not enough water = add more water (easy). Leaving film or a clogging razor can indicate this
-Too much water/not enough soap. Will go on looking ok but the water dries quickly before a pass is complete leaving a thin soap film. Makes you think there wasn't enough water... but you actually don't have enough soap in the water to hold it in place.
-Bubbles in the lather=needs to be worked more on the face/bowl to work the bubbles out. air adds volume to the lather but is no better than dry shaving.
-Skipping blade? Stop! When it doubt... add more soap to brush, work on face/bowl... try again. Don't wreck yourself before your check yourself (lather)
About 9/10 of my problems in my first month stemmed from 1) Not enough soap or 2) Not working the soap into my face long enough to actually get a good lather. I really didn't have razor/blade/angle/pressure/etc problems. It was all the prep.
Again, I think VDH smells ok, looks/feels ok on the face but it just doesn't seem to provide the glide that some other soaps have. The really only good side of VDH is that I can drive ~1 mile away and buy it in one of two stores. That's it. I don't use it because I have better and even cheaper stuff on hand.
-Lots of soap + little bit of water = good.
-Not enough water = add more water (easy). Leaving film or a clogging razor can indicate this
-Too much water/not enough soap. Will go on looking ok but the water dries quickly before a pass is complete leaving a thin soap film. Makes you think there wasn't enough water... but you actually don't have enough soap in the water to hold it in place.
-Bubbles in the lather=needs to be worked more on the face/bowl to work the bubbles out. air adds volume to the lather but is no better than dry shaving.
-Skipping blade? Stop! When it doubt... add more soap to brush, work on face/bowl... try again. Don't wreck yourself before your check yourself (lather)
About 9/10 of my problems in my first month stemmed from 1) Not enough soap or 2) Not working the soap into my face long enough to actually get a good lather. I really didn't have razor/blade/angle/pressure/etc problems. It was all the prep.
Again, I think VDH smells ok, looks/feels ok on the face but it just doesn't seem to provide the glide that some other soaps have. The really only good side of VDH is that I can drive ~1 mile away and buy it in one of two stores. That's it. I don't use it because I have better and even cheaper stuff on hand.
Dead easy lather, thick, slick, can be left on your face or your boar brush for long periods without burning you or breaking down... VDH/KMF croap is exactly the luxury you're looking for, without all the badger and scuttle frou-frou that comes with creams. Microwave the VDH till it melts (Select smells less than Deluxe), stir in an equal volume KMF in the scent you prefer, or unscented plus essential oil. After it cools, stir it again, and it hardens suddenly around your finger -- pretty cool. But only to the consistency of margarine.
All you need is a fancy bowl to pour into, nobody would know you didn't spend $20.
I almost regret that we don't have VDH and KMF here
And as DickyRivers said above as well; lather is a product of soap, water, and time. If there is not enough of any of those ingredients, your lather will not be as good as it can be.
- Thread starter
- #39
I ordered a bar of Col. Conk Bay Rum and it should get here today. I read a few reviews and some thought it lathered better than VDH. It has a water softener as an ingredient, that one thing I have noticed also is found in Williams and it worked acceptably to shave with. I've never tried Conk.
I seem to recall now, though it has been years ago, that I had trouble with VDH before. In fact I had trouble with soaps in general, but not creams. So I think Conk will be the last soap I try before I just become a cream man. The only soaps I have not tried are the Italian soft soaps, and those seem to be in a category all of their own.
I've asked my dad, who lives in DC (at least until weekends) and also is into traditional wet shaving (he uses open-comb DE's and a Weishi), to keep an eye out for some high end shave cream like Trumpers or Taylor's, and bring me back some next time he visits. He prefers the Body Shop Maca shave cream.
I seem to recall now, though it has been years ago, that I had trouble with VDH before. In fact I had trouble with soaps in general, but not creams. So I think Conk will be the last soap I try before I just become a cream man. The only soaps I have not tried are the Italian soft soaps, and those seem to be in a category all of their own.
I've asked my dad, who lives in DC (at least until weekends) and also is into traditional wet shaving (he uses open-comb DE's and a Weishi), to keep an eye out for some high end shave cream like Trumpers or Taylor's, and bring me back some next time he visits. He prefers the Body Shop Maca shave cream.
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- Thread starter
- #40
I tried a second Dorco blade... it was better, no tugging, but the shave was still mediocre. Maybe double edged razors just are not for me. The shaves I'm getting are not as good as a modern razor or a disposable, I don't mean in terms of closeness- they are close enough. Just uncomfortable.
I ordered some Israeli Personnas and Rapira Swedish Super Steels to try out.
Father lathering irritates the hell out of my face, I'm trying to do as little of it as possible.
I ordered some Israeli Personnas and Rapira Swedish Super Steels to try out.
Father lathering irritates the hell out of my face, I'm trying to do as little of it as possible.
