Frank Shaving - I should have known better than to get involved .

[kiwimike]

The 24/50 FS Richmond silvertip brush I ordered from Ian turned out to be 56mm long, had a crooked loft, and weighed a lot less than advertised.
However his service was good and it was well packaged and turned up in a reasonable time.
I let him know about the brush being out of spec and that I wasnt happy but was prepared to accept it as is, and he apologised for it not being what I ordered and corrected the ebay listing.
I accepted it as it was because it works great and it was on the cheaper side.
I am a perfectionist so everytime I look at it I have mixed feelings because the crooked knot bugs me but it also performs well.
So conflicted really.........

 

[Slash McCoy]

You didn't get what you ordered. That is beyond any possible dispute.

But I am curious about how well the brush lathers and holds together. Do you think the brush is worth the price? And is the higher loft firm enough?

 

[jansob]

Well, this makes me sad and grateful. I really love, love, love my FS finest that I got back when he first started. I like it as much as my Berkley. But a friend bought one a year ago. Not as dense, glue showing one one side, not as evenly shaped. So I'm sad that the QC seems to have slipped, and grateful I got a good one.

Oh, and just to be clear, I won't be rolling the dice on another.

 

[Gigster]

The stand was what made me laugh about the whole thing. I envision a checklist with a callout like this.

28 mm knot brush ... check!

Stand that only allows 23 mm knot brush matched to use with this 28 mm brush... check!

O.K. Ship it!

Too funny. Thanks for the early morning chuckle!

Sending a 23mm stand for a 28mm brush is like adding insult to injury, IMO. Definitely makes you think, "HUH" or ponder, "What was he thinking when he decided to slip it into the box?" lol

Early into my return to wet shaving, I purchased two FS brushes - a Finest and a Silvertip. The Finest is an awesome brush. The Silvertip has a very nice handle and beautiful knot, but what a excessively floppy, lather hog. lol What I received, spec wise, was not what was advertised - loft is way, way too high. Attempts to resolve this problem ended with negative results.

I hope you're able to work it out with FS.

 

[ouch]

What a surprise. We never had any issues with him.

View attachment $gg.JPG

 

[SliceOfLife]

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_sop=15&_sacat=0&_from=R40&_nkw=shaving+brush+stand&rt=nc&LH_BIN=1

Frank shavings are in there for $2 + $3.5 shipping ($2.5 for additional). There are one or two similar stands cheaper. Or you could find a china direct-esque seller and get them for under $1 each if you're willing to order a hundred or more. Better yet, get some clear plexi and a heat gun and dremel and make your own higher quality one for a few cents.

 

[GDCarrington]

Well here is a reply from Ian.

To: gary
From: iantang
Sent: Oct-08-12 02:45 AM


Dear gary

Hi,Gary,

Sorry for late reply.We are in national holiday from 29 Sep to 7 Oct and I just back to office this morning.

This brush was made with several other custom brush which of same loft together last month.Most of clients hv received their brushes during last week and left good feedback for their brushes already.If the loft difference is so big,they should informed me already.

I saw your mail and check the pic you sent.But due to the angle problem,I can not see clear if you have dimetered it correct

Anyway if you think this brush is not acceptable,I can pay the shipping fee of back and remake one for you.Please let me know shipping fee of USPS normal air mail service and I will pay it to you via Paypal.

Sorry for the inconvience occured!

Thanks/Ian

- iantang

Now this is what chaps me ... "I saw your mail and check the pic you sent.But due to the angle problem,I can not see clear if you have dimetered it correct "

He is trying to make good, but he seems from many of the earlier threads he seems to make a habit of questioning the customer's ability to measure correctly.

 

[Scritchnscrub]

Honestly, I'd cut the man a little slack. He's offered to pay your shipping both ways, which, at $20 for the brush, probably offsets what little profit he made. To me that's the important thing - doing the right thing. He's just making the point that the photo doesn't show the problem definitively (I have to agree - the first thing I thought when I saw the photo was that I really couldn't tell how tall the loft was from it.)

I'm sure some would argue that there was no point in him going there if he was prepared to make good on it but I think it's fair for a vendor to make the point that although he can't confirm your complaint from the evidence you've supplied, he's willing to do whatever it takes to make you happy.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Honestly, I'd cut the man a little slack. He's offered to pay your shipping both ways, which, at $20 for the brush, probably offsets what little profit he made. To me that's the important thing - doing the right thing. He's just making the point that the photo doesn't show the problem definitively (I have to agree - the first thing I thought when I saw the photo was that I really couldn't tell how tall the loft was from it.)

I'm sure some would argue that there was no point in him going there if he was prepared to make good on it but I think it's fair for a vendor to make the point that although he can't confirm your complaint from the evidence you've supplied, he's willing to do whatever it takes to make you happy.

+1. Let him win the argument. It shouldn't matter to you. As long as you get your brush the way you ordered it and wow... you don't even get stuck with shipping. Remember, and I hope this isn't perceived as unduly prejudiced or anything, but Asians are sometimes really intense about "saving face". This phenomenon has been documented at length and experienced firsthand by moi. Let him have his quasi-victory which costs you nothing, while you enjoy your real one. Is everybody happy yet?

 

[merkur59]

... but Asians are sometimes really intense about "saving face"...

+1

 

[GDCarrington]

Well, for better or for worse, I decided just to provide additional information and let the transaction end.

----- Original Message -----
From: gary

Sent: 10/08/12 08:04 PM
To: iantang

Ian,

I have read your message and I want to let you know a few facts.

1. I was not purchasing a custom brush from you for my regular use. I am a member of several shaving forums and I was going to use the FS custom brush to compare to brushes from other manufacturers. I needed the brush to be correct to make comparisons against known brushes.

2. You have a question on my ability to measure loft. May I now inform you that I restore vintage shaving brushes and make custom brushes of my own so I am aware of how to measure the loft of a brush, the diameter of a knot and so on. In an earlier correspondence I mentioned my interest in your synthetic knots and can they be purchased directly.

3. To prove the measurement again here is another photo taken at a 90 degree angle to eliminate any angle issues. Now the loft can clearly be seen against the accurate measurement.

4. Why did you send a stand that cannot work with this brush? The knot is 28 mm but the stand is not large enough at the opening to accept a 28 mm. I can understand wanting to provide the customer a bonus as a good thought, but the stand must be able to work with the brush. Here is a picture of the stand that cannot accept the brush.

This stand simply is of no use. Nice thought, but not usable with this brush.

5. You stated that no one informed you of loft issues and that you have not heard anything negative. I posted all the email communication about this issue on a very large and well known shaving forum to see whether this holds water. Let me bring in some of the answers from the members of this shaving forum concerning why they did not complain or just gave up on your custom and off the shelf brushes.

Customer 1
The 24/50 FS Richmond silvertip brush I ordered from Ian turned out to be 56mm long, had a crooked loft, and weighed a lot less than advertised.
However his service was good and it was well packaged and turned up in a reasonable time.
I let him know about the brush being out of spec and that I wasn't happy but was prepared to accept it as is, and he apologised for it not being what I ordered and corrected the ebay listing.
I accepted it as it was because it works great and it was on the cheaper side.
I am a perfectionist so everytime I look at it I have mixed feelings because the crooked knot bugs me but it also performs well.
So conflicted really.........

Customer 2
Well, this makes me sad and grateful. I really love, love, love my FS finest that I got back when he first started. I like it as much as my Berkley. But a friend bought one a year ago. Not as dense, glue showing one one side, not as evenly shaped. So I'm sad that the QC seems to have slipped, and grateful I got a good one.

Oh, and just to be clear, I won't be rolling the dice on another

Customer 3
I am glad to see that I am not the only person who feels that Frank shaving brushes are not bad but not great - I have about 8 brushes in my rotation, including a Frank silvertip and a Frank finest and notice that I do not find myself using them very often. In the plus column, they get the job done and don't shed, but the handle is not very heavy and the brush hairs are not packed together too densely. The glueing on the knot on my finest is a bit off and you can see a layer of glue on a bit of a diagonal where the knot meets the handle. This does not affect functionality at all and I really was not expecting a Simpson, Rooney or ShaveMac quality brush for a small fraction of the price.

Customer 4
I ordered one based on the Samjax thread you cite. I also laughed at the stand being too small (but I didn't specify a stand, nor did Ian, so I thought that was a laughable bonus -- it fits another brush I had wihtout a stand. Still... where can I get a $1-$3 stand?? Even if I have to file it open wider!). I took the loft on faith. No calipers. I like it more than my Omega synthetic for various reasons, but I wasn't in any way super precise about the custom order aspect. This is a damn shame.

These are not the only customers that have had issues, just the ones I could get to easy. Most people buy your brushes and if they are wrong they are not so expensive to go through the trouble of getting them fixed. Now the last one is the biggest reason why you do not hear about loft issues. I took the loft on faith. No calipers. That means that most of your customers do not measure to see if it is wrong so they have no way of knowing.
Now to be fair, you have a large number of satisfied customers, but there are a large number of customers who only accepted the brushes because it was too much effort to return an inexpensive brush.

Since I restore and build my own brushes, I measure every brush that comes my way, whether it is for personal use, restoring, building, etc. Again, I did not need a brush for daily use, I have plenty of my own design / restoration and even ones that I purchased to use. This was for a testing effort but too much time has passed and I am not willing to wait for a new brush and shipments back and forth from China. I will like many of the other customers who have received incorrect merchandise from you, let the transaction stand because quite frankly I have lost my interest in this item and have told the members of the shaving forum that I will correspond if a message is received from you and then let this matter go away.

However, just to prove something, I had a request for a custom restoration of a brush and the customer requested a new knot be placed in his old brush at 48 mm. I told him that I would have one in at around 48 mm +/- 1 mm. He agreed and I went to restore the brush, which by the way, is more difficult than making a new one. I have done both repeatedly so I know what it takes to do both.
I made sure that since this was a custom restoration that I contacted this individual one last time to make sure of the knot and the loft. He restated that he wanted it at 48 mm. So here are the results.

The loft was 48.2 mm and the customer is delighted that it is exactly what he ordered. Exactly what he ordered. That is what a custom order is all about.

Now I have not sent this to berate, belittle, or degrade you. I am simply stating that if you want to make custom brushes, you need to make sure that you meet that custom specification. Throughout the shaving forums here is what is thought about your brushes. Hit or miss. Quality standards not good. Cheap brush so why bother with it.

I hope you do improve your quality and I expect no further communication on this matter because I consider this to be closed.

Regards,

Gary
​

This may have sounded harsh (that was not the intent) but it seems that he is rewarded for making a bad product which ultimately does him no good nor others who think that they are getting a great deal. Sometimes they are and sometime they are not.

​

 

[Scritchnscrub]

Wow. Sorry but that's way out of line IMHO. I consider this thread closed. It's given me a whopping headache.

 

[bakerbarber]

You ought to buy your own knots and handles and make your own brushes.

You're clearly a detail oriented individual with high standards. Obviously they were way off compared to what you requested.

I wouldn't be too surprised if I ordered a custom beverage at Starbucks and it came up wrong. Especially if they offered to remake it or give me my money back. Logging the discussion in its entirety with every iota of the back and forth and then documenting it with pictures for posterity seems pretty intense. Nobody's perfect 100% of the time.

You could have spent the time and energy you've agonized over this incident on getting a brush you want the way you want it from another vendor. I mean, he said he can't tell from your picture what the exact breadth of your dissatisfaction is, but he offered to take it back and pay for shipping.

It sounds like you win.

I didn't infer he was criticizing your photography skills nor implying you were being unreasonable. I also didn't read 90% of any of your posts here in this thread. It just seemed like you took a swing at a penny nail with a sledge hammer to me. My feeble brain couldn't cope with the details and my eyes glazed over. No worries though, I had my bib on and didn't soil my osh-gosh-bigoshes as I drooled at the sheer gravity and intensity of the situation.

I think your thread title and substance is a little over kill. I have a couple FS brushes and, in light of what they cost, I feel I received a great value in the items I received. If not, I wouldn't make a crusade out it though either.

Let me buy you a beer. Just don't bring your camera and blog about it if it's not at the peak of perfection.

I'm just joshing you though. I can understand the frustration of spending a lot of time and investing a lot of planning on something only to be disappointed with it. The slowness of the responses would bug me too.

 

[GDCarrington]

You didn't get what you ordered. That is beyond any possible dispute.

But I am curious about how well the brush lathers and holds together. Do you think the brush is worth the price? And is the higher loft firm enough?

I have not shaved with it. The loft is the same as my 23 mm Franks Shaving brush and it is somewhat denser so it is slightly more firm than the 23 mm.

 

[GDCarrington]

You ought to buy your own knots and handles and make your own brushes.

You're clearly a detail oriented individual with high standards. Obviously they were way off compared to what you requested.

I wouldn't be too surprised if I ordered a custom beverage at Starbucks and it came up wrong. Especially if they offered to remake it or give me my money back. Logging the discussion in its entirety with every iota of the back and forth and then documenting it with pictures for posterity seems pretty intense. Nobody's perfect 100% of the time.

You could have spent the time and energy you've agonized over this incident on getting a brush you want the way you want it from another vendor. I mean, he said he can't tell from your picture what the exact breadth of your dissatisfaction is, but he offered to take it back and pay for shipping.

It sounds like you win.

I didn't infer he was criticizing your photography skills nor implying you were being unreasonable. I also didn't read 90% of any of your posts here in this thread. It just seemed like you took a swing at a penny nail with a sledge hammer to me. My feeble brain couldn't cope with the details and my eyes glazed over. No worries though, I had my bib on and didn't soil my osh-gosh-bigoshes as I drooled at the sheer gravity and intensity of the situation.

I think your thread title and substance is a little over kill. I have a couple FS brushes and, in light of what they cost, I feel I received a great value in the items I received. If not, I wouldn't make a crusade out it though either.

Let me buy you a beer. Just don't bring your camera and blog about it if it's not at the peak of perfection.

I'm just joshing you though. I can understand the frustration of spending a lot of time and investing a lot of planning on something only to be disappointed with it. The slowness of the responses would bug me too.

No, I did not win. I knew that going in. I will take the hits against myself on this forum.
The same tact of loft size and disputing how it was measured was used against a couple of other members as well.
The real problem is that this is happening a lot and members will belly ache, but no one will actually display the real issues. They just accept it and move on and the cycle continues. Thread after thread is made, but all that occurs is harping but no changing. I truly do hope his quality improves. I really hope that he will be able to run a better business for himself and his customers. Many of you may not believe that, but that is the case.

... and yes, no one is perfect, especially me. I don't seek perfection because that is something cannot be attained.

 

[BallisticBurrito]

I remember posting about how I wouldn't want to buy a brush entirely made in China on a Frank's Shaving thread a while back and got bashed a bit.
Yes, I know the badger hair comes from China anyway..but quality of materials isn't all of the battle..there's the assembly and finishing of said materials where most of the finished quality lies.
That's why I'm iffy about ordering shaving utensils made anywhere outside of the US and Europe.

 

[Crog]

The thing I hate the most is when I make a custom order on a Chinese girl (apparently the adoption agencies can sell 'em easier because of the infanticide thing) and I receive one that is totally wrong and then I have to sent it back.

That kind of stuff really gets my goat!

 

[Suede]

Here is what happened today to my Frank Shaving 22mm Silvertip after being used about 10 times:



The paint first swelled and then cracked after contact. Now it just peels off..
Although I like the knot, I was instantly disappointed by the handle, which is too light and has a cheap feeling to it.

Would it be possible to replace it?