Flask's newbie adventure

[flask28]

Excellent long read! And good intel on the difference between the GC baseplates - something to bear in mind for the future.

Awesome brushes! Very happy for you that it is behaving this way and that you like it.

Have a great Sunday!

Guido

Thanks man!

Yeah, that was a long one. There was a lot of new stuff!! lol. This ZT4 is wild, it like it's from a different brush universe in feel and technique. But that's the Awesome Universe.

I didn't even write about the Zenith but the post was getting so long. I'll wait on that until I shave with it, not just do a preshave. Spoiler Alert: It's A LOT like the muhle 25mm STF just with less soft of tips.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Our containers are different.

I've always thought of it as mango. The scent is not overpoweringly strong, but there's no doubt about mango. The scent is subtle, sublime, definite, and only mildly complex. I'm lousy at talking about scents.

With the Mozingo are you simply not splaying the knot, not at all?

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Elliot]

Great entry! Looking forward to watching the kit dial in.

 

[Mr. Shavington]

My first SV Saturday!

View attachment 1631089

Preshave Soap: PAA Cube - in a bowl
Preshave Brush: Zenith M15 28mm Manchurian Badger
Razor: GameChanger .84-P
Blade: Gillette Platinum (5)
Soap: Saponificio Varesino Flying Mango (2016 forum edition)
Brush: 26mm Mozingo ZT4 on and Alpha Titanium Outlaw V2 handle
Post: Ethos Skin Food Lotion Succès

This luxurious Saturday shave saw the introduction of a few new pieces of kit and it was quite the adventure. Unfamiliar soap, new brush, new 84P plate on the gamechanger - after a month of FFFMM and two months exclusively using the Omega Jade boar brush I felt like I was starting from scratch. Or maybe using a different car's clutch for the first time.

Let's start with the headline first - I had a semi-amazing two-pass shave this morning. Closer than any of the FFFMM shaves with the GC 68-P, the 84p is no joke. After finishing the right side I took a moment to evaluate and decided I couldn't really feel much difference from the 68-P. There was a moment that I though, perhaps, the 84 had a hint more blade feel but by the time I'd finished the first pass I wasn't so sure of that anymore.

But I sure could notice an increase in efficiency however. The 84 is just as smooth as the 68p but is doing about 25% more work per stroke it feels like. This shave was the first time I can really say a two pass shave equaled my earlier February three pass shaves. I think a three pass with this setup (once I get it dialed in) may be the ticket to my first true BBS.

I had a little trouble with the lather. The ZT4 is so different than the boar I've been using I felt like a complete rookie again. In hindsight I think I shook too much water from the brush and didn't load long enough. I ended up with a pretty thin lather that wasn't that well hydrated, it dried out quicker than I wanted it to.

The older SV Flying Mango has a nice but not at all mangoish scent. I got this slightly used (and sort of beat up) off Reddit a while back and have been looking forward to trying it, but I guess I just assumed it was mango-y. LOL, no. Flask, it's called that because it has mango butter in it, not because it's mango scented. OMG. I should read once in a while.

View attachment 1631107

Luckily I enjoy the scent. It's brightly citrus forward, almost MdC Agrumes bright, but is quickly tempered by a woody, floral musk base. It's typical SV in that it's more of a cologne-like scents and I'd put it close to Cubebe in character and vibe.

The ZT4 is a little overwhelming. I'm wrestling with a few things there, the biggest being the fact this is my first shave with a badger brush. Moving from boars to this monster-sized Manchurian has got a little something of a learning curve it turns out.

Something @Mr. Shavington posted recently about the ZT4 stuck with me, he characterized the ZT4 as a brush with a very firm backbone and very soft tips. Rather than splaying a ZT4, it was more about useing it to scrub with the tips. As I started face lathering I quickly felt exactly what he meant. This felt like softly, gently scrubbing your face with a velvet-furred giant mushroom.

I can see now why he tied the knot to be this dinner plate sized fan, that complements the other characteristics of the design. It's a different scrubbing technique from what I'm used to - But I like it!! These tips almost gel, but not quite. You can feel the individual hairs, unlike my broken in boars, but they are soft. This (to me) greatly enhances the feel and luxuriousness of the scrubbing action.

I'm looking forward to dialing in this soap and brush over the next few weeks.

Very interesting post about the brush. It’s definitely the fashion with artisan hand-tied badger brushes to have knots with thick two-band hair, densely packed for strong backbone, with soft, white tips. You can splay them just fine but you aren’t the only one who primarily uses the tips and only spreads the knot lightly. I can’t say whether one way of using it is better than another, or if your way is better for the brush, but I’ve seen some artisan badger collectors recommend what you’re doing. As ever, I guess the way you like best is always the right way.

It seems to me that this kind of dense, two-band, 2:1 loft ratio, soft-tipped badger knot has become the accepted modern spec for a high-quality knot, whereas traditional high-quality badger knots were commonly finer, three-band silvertip hair, less dense, much less backbone, with higher lofts, giving a much lighter, gentler feel. Two very different interpretations of luxury.

I’ve had a lot of modern-style badgers and, while I do like them, I grew tired of the heavy feel and I came to prefer the effortless splay and gentle feel of a more traditional knot. I enjoy the lightness and the way these brushes perform so well without any effort. I think they also make a better lather, more easily, and they release the lather much more easily. I think I fell into the trap of following received forum wisdom, rather than allowing myself to decide what I most liked. I’m only exploring now the more traditional kind of brush but so far I’ve found Plisson and Mondial to be very good indeed.

I’m not suggesting that one style is better than the other - but rather that the traditional style of luxury badger knot has become overlooked, and people will now view such a knot as inferior value because you get fewer hairs for your money, or they will think it’s inferior because it is floppier (and not consider whether floppier might actually be better). In reality I think the only important thing is how the knot feels and performs, and whether you like it.

I also wonder if the prevalence of modern, dense, low-lofted badgers has changed our perception of what a badger shaving brush is like. The modern brushes have become more like good boar brushes in feel and performance, whereas the traditional badgers have attributes we now associate with good synthetics, but also have an organic feel and extremely easy splay. I wonder if the change in badger knot making has opened up the boar market as a close alternative, and created the synthetic market as a softer, lighter alternative (when traditional badger brushes were rather similar). I certainly feel that my Plisson HMW and Mondial Silvertip brushes are as soft, whip up lather just as quickly, and they dry as fast as my good synthetics. Traditionally badger brushes were considered more luxurious than boar because they were much softer - and they were. The modern ones aren’t so much.

 

[Elliot]

Very interesting post about the brush. It’s definitely the fashion with artisan hand-tied badger brushes to have knots with thick two-band hair, densely packed for strong backbone, with soft, white tips. You can splay them just fine but you aren’t the only one who primarily uses the tips and only spreads the knot lightly. I can’t say whether one way of using it is better than another, or if your way is better for the brush, but I’ve seen some artisan badger collectors recommend what you’re doing. As ever, I guess the way you like best is always the right way.

It seems to me that this kind of dense, two-band, 2:1 loft ratio, soft-tipped badger knot has become the accepted modern spec for a high-quality knot, whereas traditional high-quality badger knots were commonly finer, three-band silvertip hair, less dense, much less backbone, with higher lofts, giving a much lighter, gentler feel. Two very different interpretations of luxury.

I’ve had a lot of modern-style badgers and, while I do like them, I grew tired of the heavy feel and I came to prefer the effortless splay and gentle feel of a more traditional knot. I enjoy the lightness and the way these brushes perform so well without any effort. I think they also make a better lather, more easily, and they release the lather much more easily. I think I fell into the trap of following received forum wisdom, rather than allowing myself to decide what I most liked. I’m only exploring now the more traditional kind of brush but so far I’ve found Plisson and Mondial to be very good indeed.

View attachment 1631209

I’m not suggesting that one style is better than the other - but rather that the traditional style of luxury badger knot has become overlooked, and people will now view such a knot as inferior value because you get fewer hairs for your money, or they will think it’s inferior because it is floppier (and not consider whether floppier might actually be better). In reality I think the only important thing is how the knot feels and performs, and whether you like it.

I also wonder if the prevalence of modern, dense, low-lofted badgers has changed our perception of what a badger shaving brush is like. The modern brushes have become more like good boar brushes in feel and performance, whereas the traditional badgers have attributes we now associate with good synthetics, but also have an organic feel and extremely easy splay. I wonder if the change in badger knot making has opened up the boar market as a close alternative, and created the synthetic market as a softer, lighter alternative (when traditional badger brushes were rather similar). I certainly feel that my Plisson HMW and Mondial Silvertip brushes are as soft, whip up lather just as quickly, and they dry as fast as my good synthetics. Traditionally badger brushes were considered more luxurious than boar because they were much softer - and they were. The modern ones aren’t so much.

I've been fighting off buying a Plisson for awhile.

 

[Mr. Shavington]

I've been fighting off buying a Plisson for awhile.

The Mondial silvertip is a similar kind of brush for much less money. Vie-Long silvertips appear to be similar, even less money, and it is said they use the same source of badger hair as Plisson - but I haven’t tried Vie-Long myself, yet. Between the Plisson and Mondial I’d say they’re very close but the Plisson feels a little bit more angelic (I’ve no idea how to describe it - it just has a certain quality to it).

I’m sure there must be other traditional style badger brushes available. But Simpsons aren’t like this and Kent don’t make badgers any more.

Note that these brushes have high lofts and will be much larger in use than the knot diameter suggests. I’ve got a size 14 Plisson HMW which is 22mm with 59mm loft and it is a huge brush - feels as big as a 30mm modern style badger. The standard Plisson size 12 (22mm and 56mm loft) or size 10 (20mm and 53mm loft) are good sizes - feel like 26-28mm modern knots.

BTW, Plisson sells a size 20 knot (28mm with 69mm loft). No idea how they get such long hairs but it’s a comedy brush. Here is somebody’s photo of their size 20 Plisson - you can see that it’s nothing like a modern 28mm brush. Don’t be tempted to buy a 28mm Plisson just because other 28mm brushes were right for you.

 

[Elliot]

The Mondial silvertip is a similar kind of brush for much less money. Vie-Long silvertips appear to be similar, even less money, and it is said they use the same source of badger hair as Plisson - but I haven’t tried Vie-Long myself, yet. Between the Plisson and Mondial I’d say they’re very close but the Plisson feels a little bit more angelic (I’ve no idea how to describe it - it just has a certain quality to it).

I’m sure there must be other traditional style badger brushes available. But Simpsons aren’t like this and Kent don’t make badgers any more.

Note that these brushes have high lofts and will be much larger in use than the knot diameter suggests. I’ve got a size 14 Plisson HMW which is 22mm with 59mm loft and it is a huge brush - feels as big as a 30mm modern style badger. The standard Plisson size 12 (22mm and 56mm loft) or size 10 (20mm and 53mm loft) are good sizes - feel like 26-28mm modern knots.

BTW, Plisson sells a size 20 knot (28mm with 69mm loft). No idea how they get such long hairs but it’s a comedy brush. Here is somebody’s photo of their size 20 Plisson - you can see that it’s nothing like a modern 28mm brush. Don’t be tempted to buy a 28mm Plisson just because other 28mm brushes were right for you.

View attachment 1631246

Holy crap that’s huge! I’ve got some nice badger from Paladin, Simpsons, Morris & Forndran and Shavemac (via Rudy). There are still others that catch my eye. Plisson at the top, followed by Mozingo and maybe Varlet.

 

[Mr. Shavington]

Here also is a size 14 Plisson HMW (22mm, 59mm loft) next to a Wald J3 (27mm, 53mm loft). Just for comparison. You can perhaps see how the 22mm Plisson, being much less rigid too, would feel bigger than the Wald.

And here is another size 14 Plisson next to a Simpsons Chubby 1. Both of these are 22mm knots.

 

[Elliot]

Here also is a size 14 Plisson HMW (22mm, 59mm loft) next to a Wald J3 (27mm, 53mm loft). Just for comparison. You can perhaps see how the 22mm Plisson, being much less rigid too, would feel bigger than the Wald.

View attachment 1631248

And here is another size 14 Plisson next to a Simpsons Chubby 1. Both of these are 22mm knots.

View attachment 1631253

Also, all things considered, a Plisson doesn't have to break the bank. A size 10 in the Tortoiseshell classic is 180 euros.

 

[Rosseforp]

In hindsight I think I shook too much water from the brush and didn't load long enough. I ended up with a pretty thin lather that wasn't that well hydrated, it dried out quicker than I wanted it to.

The older SV Flying Mango has a nice but not at all mangoish scent.

SV soaps tend to lather better when bloomed a few minutes, and load heavy, it's triple milled..

~doug~

 

[Phoenixkh]

@Chan Eil Whiskers got me buying SV 2.0 brushes... They aren't as dense as the artisan badger brushes, I don't think... but they are perfect for me. They all have that gentle scrub I just love.... As you know, I have three of them now... The only brush I might add is the Special Edition like the one Jim posted ^ , if they release it in a wood I just love.. like Cocobolo or one of those.... You never know what SV is going to create.

I think I've decided I'll sell my extra Green Cult 2.0 and my Elite 26mm Manchurian brush when we get back from Bali.... The Elite is a lovely brush.... but as I've mentioned it would be better suited for someone who loves that soft feel. Those two should get me half way to the purchase price of the Wolfman WR4 when it's released.

 

[flask28]

Hey there Brothers -

I was off grid this week with a series of dramas, both personal and work. Nothing super serious, but stressful and a little painful. Enough that it put me off anything else I had to engage with for a few days. Sorry about that, I missed you guys .

But I've been able to get it all a day behind me, had a restful long sleep last night and an uncommitted Saturday to walk and recover. Amazing what some distance and sleep will do!!

I was able to get in two fantastic shaves this week with the ZT4, one with a new EFB from @Guido75 the Amazing Dutchman!

WOW! @Guido75, thank you!! He was kind enough to grab one for me that came up on his local auction site and it's in fantastic shape. I only got one shave in before it was commissioned to @Tanuki for an ultrasonic bath. Which I always imagine to be something like the bacta tank from star wars.

My first thought was that the flat bottom feels and performs a lot like the GameChanger 84P - very high praise!! With @Rosseforp's excellent SV lathering advice I had an excellent lather that was slick and stayed hydrated while I played around with the flat bottom.

I used the ZT4 again a two days later with the pre-war Tech and (finally!) the Kox Old School Scheerzeep that @Guido75 also sent me but got waylaid by FFFMM. Thank you for this sir! In comparison to the SV 4.0 base I'd used right before it's got a little more body, little less slickness and was super easy to load. It's got a very mild fresh scent.

I read @Mr. Shavington's very thoughtful response last sunday and thought about it during the week, musing on his description of how "luxury" badgers have been getting more and more backbone - boarlike, perhaps.

I’m sure there must be other traditional style badger brushes available. But Simpsons aren’t like this and Kent don’t make badgers any more.

This comment reminded me that last December I found a guy selling his dad's brushes on Craigslist. One was what seemed to be a very old Kent. He thought his dad must have purchased it sometime between 1945 and 1960 but he had no idea when or where. For $20 I figured why not, it felt and looked in decent shape. I'd washed and lathered it and was planning on trying it...but then I started with boars and honestly forgot it was stashed back there on the storage shelf.

Your mention of it brought it to mind and I decied to apply my preshave to with so I could compare it with the ZT4.

There could not be a bigger difference between these brushes!! WOW!! The vintage Kent is S-O-F-T. Soft in every way. The tips are soft, there's very little backbone - it reminds me of the Razorock Big Bruce synthetic I used to have, it's almost makeup brush soft. But it's super easy to use - it face lathers very, very well and built it up quicker than any of my other brushes.

@Mr. Shavington, I completely see what you are saying, if this Kent is a representative example of a traditional style. And I agree, the Kent closer to synth and this ZT4 is closer to boar than they are to each other.

When I think of comparative words for these two I seem to fall back to car metaphors . The Kent is a vintage Rolls: Big, plush and a little vague but who cares. The ZT4 is more like a McLaren. It's precise and responsive and excellent in everything it does. Painting lather with it feels like rowing the gears in a 911, it will lay down these perfectly even layers of lather. And it'll do it forever it feels like.

Whereas the Kent feels, well, you barely feel it at all. You are moving your hand around and somehow all this lather is building but it's like you are doing it on someone else's face .

Thank you @Elliot and @Mr. Shavington for your thought on these and those GREAT photos of the Plisson brushes, I didn't know anything about those. You inspired me to dig out this old Kent and finally give it a shot. I'll report back more.

@Guido75, thanks again my friend. I can't believe I finally have a EFT!! And it's from you! And that it actually seems to live up to the hype somewhat .

 

[Elliot]

Hey there Brothers -

I was off grid this week with a series of dramas, both personal and work. Nothing super serious, but stressful and a little painful. Enough that it put me off anything else I had to engage with for a few days. Sorry about that, I missed you guys .

But I've been able to get it all a day behind me, had a restful long sleep last night and an uncommitted Saturday to walk and recover. Amazing what some distance and sleep will do!!

I was able to get in two fantastic shaves this week with the ZT4, one with a new EFB from @Guido75 the Amazing Dutchman!

View attachment 1634992

WOW! @Guido75, thank you!! He was kind enough to grab one for me that came up on his local auction site and it's in fantastic shape. I only got one shave in before it was commissioned to @Tanuki for an ultrasonic bath. Which I always imagine to be something like the bacta tank from star wars.

My first thought was that the flat bottom feels and performs a lot like the GameChanger 84P - very high praise!! With @Rosseforp's excellent SV lathering advice I had an excellent lather that was slick and stayed hydrated while I played around with the flat bottom.

I used the ZT4 again a two days later with the pre-war Tech and (finally!) the Kox Old School Scheerzeep that @Guido75 also sent me but got waylaid by FFFMM. Thank you for this sir! In comparison to the SV 4.0 base I'd used right before it's got a little more body, little less slickness and was super easy to load. It's got a very mild fresh scent.

View attachment 1634995

I read @Mr. Shavington's very thoughtful response last sunday and thought about it during the week, musing on his description of how "luxury" badgers have been getting more and more backbone - boarlike, perhaps.



This comment reminded me that last December I found a guy selling his dad's brushes on Craigslist. One was what seemed to be a very old Kent. He thought his dad must have purchased it sometime between 1945 and 1960 but he had no idea when or where. For $20 I figured why not, it felt and looked in decent shape. I'd washed and lathered it and was planning on trying it...but then I started with boars and honestly forgot it was stashed back there on the storage shelf.

Your mention of it brought it to mind and I decied to apply my preshave to with so I could compare it with the ZT4.

There could not be a bigger difference between these brushes!! WOW!! The vintage Kent is S-O-F-T. Soft in every way. The tips are soft, there's very little backbone - it reminds me of the Razorock Big Bruce synthetic I used to have, it's almost makeup brush soft. But it's super easy to use - it face lathers very, very well and built it up quicker than any of my other brushes.

@Mr. Shavington, I completely see what you are saying, if this Kent is a representative example of a traditional style. And I agree, the Kent closer to synth and this ZT4 is closer to boar than they are to each other.

When I think of comparative words for these two I seem to fall back to car metaphors . The Kent is a vintage Rolls: Big, plush and a little vague but who cares. The ZT4 is more like a McLaren. It's precise and responsive and excellent in everything it does. Painting lather with it feels like rowing the gears in a 911, it will lay down these perfectly even layers of lather. And it'll do it forever it feels like.

Whereas the Kent feels, well, you barely feel it at all. You are moving your hand around and somehow all this lather is building but it's like you are doing it on someone else's face .

Thank you @Elliot and @Mr. Shavington for your thought on these and those GREAT photos of the Plisson brushes, I didn't know anything about those. You inspired me to dig out this old Kent and finally give it a shot. I'll report back more.

@Guido75, thanks again my friend. I can't believe I finally have a EFT!! And it's from you! And that it actually seems to live up to the hype somewhat .


View attachment 1635015

Hope all is well, brother. Finally biting the bullet on the Plisson today!

 

[APBinNCA]

This comment reminded me that last December I found a guy selling his dad's brushes on Craigslist. One was what seemed to be a very old Kent. He thought his dad must have purchased it sometime between 1945 and 1960 but he had no idea when or where. For $20 I figured why not, it felt and looked in decent shape. I'd washed and lathered it and was planning on trying it...but then I started with boars and honestly forgot it was stashed back there on the storage shelf.

You heard it here first and only here, but I got a Zenith Silvertip in last week(few days ago). It immediately became my favourite brush currently! It looks like a hybrid in pictures, but it's closer to a fan in use. The hair is very fine, odourless and non gelling. I am not even certain that it's going to perform well and I don't care, it feels perfect on my face. It's just what was missing from one of my Simpsons Best Badgers! Sorry to elbow in, but most people don't care about soft brushes. I may have more like this ordered...

 

[Guido75]

You are most welcome my friend! You’re giving me too much credit! And I am glad you enjoyed it! But I kind of figured you would.

The comparison to the GC84 is high praise indeed (although I have no idea what a GC shaves like) and it feels less obvious now to get a GC myself.

And three shaving soap lathers super easy yes. With quite some longevity. I have used it more than 40 shaves so far and I believe I am only half way through.

Most importantly you are OK! You had me worried for a while there, but very glad to read you’re getting back in the saddle again.

Enjoy that FBT!

Guido

 

[Mr. Shavington]

You heard it here first and only here, but I got a Zenith Silvertip in last week(few days ago). It immediately became my favourite brush currently! It looks like a hybrid in pictures, but it's closer to a fan in use. The hair is very fine, odourless and non gelling. I am not even certain that it's going to perform well and I don't care, it feels perfect on my face. It's just what was missing from one of my Simpsons Best Badgers! Sorry to elbow in, but most people don't care about soft brushes. I may have more like this ordered...

I like Zenith Silvertips a lot too. They perform extremely well for me. Maybe we’ll start a soft three-band badger revolution. If you like yours so much maybe you should also try out a less dense, higher-lofted, three-band silvertip like I’ve been doing. Even softer and lighter.

I’m waiting on a couple of Vie-Long silvertips that I’ve ordered. A 16510 (24x56mm) and a 16910 (22x51mm). Not as high-lofted as my Plissons but still in the ballpark. I liked the Mondials that I bought, but it looks from their new website like they only ship inside the EU now unless you make a special request.

 

[Guido75]

it looks from their new website like they only ship inside the EU

If I can be of assistance just let me know.

Guido

 

[APBinNCA]

If you like yours so much maybe you should also try out a less dense, higher-lofted, three-band silvertip like I’ve been doing. Even softer and lighter.

The big thing that my synthetic adventures taught me was that I want cloud like softness, though some fibre feel is fine, and moderate backbone. My G5C is mounted in an oversized hole, but it embodies the qualities I want. Easy splay is fine, but the problem for me with the higher lofted brushes is the splayed width(too wide for me). I do have smaller high loft brushes, but find that just a bit more hair with the same loft suites me better. I actually do like modern brushes, but don't want any more scrubby ones than I have. One of the wild cards that I might have ordered is a 24mm B16 for those that know what that is.

 

[flask28]

You heard it here first and only here, but I got a Zenith Silvertip in last week(few days ago). It immediately became my favourite brush currently! It looks like a hybrid in pictures, but it's closer to a fan in use. The hair is very fine, odourless and non gelling. I am not even certain that it's going to perform well and I don't care, it feels perfect on my face. It's just what was missing from one of my Simpsons Best Badgers! Sorry to elbow in, but most people don't care about soft brushes. I may have more like this ordered...

Congratulations on the new brush!! You, @Elliot and @Mr. Shavington are going to bring soft back to the party!

This is a soft brush friendly space, I hope any possible future softies feel comfortable visiting

 

[flask28]

I like Zenith Silvertips a lot too. They perform extremely well for me. Maybe we’ll start a soft three-band badger revolution. If you like yours so much maybe you should also try out a less dense, higher-lofted, three-band silvertip like I’ve been doing. Even softer and lighter.

I'm still reacting to this brush! Is it weird that I want to try it?!

My hand gets tired just looking at that photo. The brush on the left is huge too, but at least it's not Ogre-sized like that monster.

Based on your silvertop sizing post above, I suspect this 24mm XL Mondial would bloom out pretty large. Maybe too large! But it's a very attractive brush.