First razor recommendations; Vintage welcome

[samwise]

Hello,
I want to get a straight razor. I am able to sharpen knives to nearly razor sharp. I also have honing equipment. So no Stones or similar will be needed. I only need a strop.
So my question is: where to buy a relatively cheap straight razor in Germany.
I would buy off eBay, but the problem with that is that I don’t know what quality I’m getting there.
My Idea was to buy a razor from whipped dog, specifically the Sight unseen. But then I would have to have it ship to Germany. I would also buy a strop there.

Thanks in Advance

 

[constant]

why dont you try revisor very good selection

 

[OtterLunacy]

I don't know much about the European vendors, but @constant is right about the lovely selection of new or NOS razors from Revisor, though I don't know if you want to spend that kind of money just yet. Also, I don't know if they actually hone them to shave ready; getting a shave ready razor to start with is a very good idea.

Whipped Dog, as you know, is a good option, though perhaps less so depending on the shipping costs. The Superior Shave, while not the cheapest option, is well known for giving great coticule edges on their razors. Important: don't buy the Dovo "Best" from anyone, because it should really be called "Dovo's Worst." Apparently they save money by not having any quality control.

I am able to sharpen knives to nearly razor sharp. I also have honing equipment. So no Stones or similar will be needed. I only need a strop.

Honing razors is not quite the same as sharpening knives. Aside from that, there might only be a few stones in your arsenal that work for both, depending on what you have. Razors usually start at the 1k grit and work their way up to 10k or more. 12k seems to be "average" or the "standard", if there really is any such thing.

 

[samwise]

why dont you try revisor very good selection

Looks good, although it is a little expensive for me.
I fancy the beginner set with a strop and a razor for 120€
Is that set good for a beginner?
I have the fear of messing up both the strop and the knife.

Honing razors is not quite the same as sharpening knives. Aside from that, there might only be a few stones in your arsenal that work for both, depending on what you have. Razors usually start at the 1k grit and work their way up to 10k or more. 12k seems to be "average" or the "standard", if there really is any such thing.

Oh okay. The finest stone I have is 4K grit. I hoped to accomplish the rest by pastes and leather strops (and chrome oxide).

 

[OtterLunacy]

I'm far from an expert myself, but it's my understanding that pastes work better if they start out at higher grits. In the honing forum (which you should definitely check out!) I've seen it suggested that with CrOx you should be starting no lower than 6k, with 8 or even 10 being preferable. I suspect this is especially true if you want to use leather for the paste, since pasted leather "rounds" the edge. For a touch-up its probably fine, but used heavily in place of finishing stones. . . I don't know for sure, but properly flattened balsa is probably a better bet.

One option you might want to consider is lapping films--they're fairly cheap and you could use them after the 4k stone. Once the razor is honed, maintaining the edge is relatively easy. Slash McCoy has a great thread about using ultra fine diamond paste/spray on balsa as a regular maintenance technique; with it, he never has to take his crazy-sharp razors back to the stones. Both of these topics, and many more, can be found in the honing forum.

 

[samwise]

but properly flattened balsa is probably a better bet.

I can try that too. Just getting some balsa wood is no problem. And the edge rounding is true. When I started learning to hone, I once stropped a pocket knife for a few minutes and I really noticed the effect.

 

[Pit Viper]

I have had good success with this razor from China. $13 USD delivered. I like it better than the new Dovo that I bought. (The Dovo is better finished but not as substantial.)

With skill, patience, and paste, you can comfortably shave off of a 4K stone. But I think you'll be happier by supplementing your kit with an 8-12K water hone. I started with this economical hone ($22 USD). It was OK. For a bit more ($48) you could get a natural stone (CNAT).

 

[OtterLunacy]

I have had good success with this razor from China. $13 USD delivered.

Huh. I've never heard of that brand. The blade looks like it might be a ZY 430+ blank with somewhat better scales.

With skill, patience, and paste, you can comfortably shave off of a 4K stone.

I'm not so sure that this is a popular opinion. . . Actually, @samwise straight razor finishing definitely is a YMMV situation. Some people really like using pastes, while others find them unacceptably harsh. Similarly, some people love coticule edges while others find them too dull for a comfortable shave. And all of these variables assume that the honing was done correctly, which is not always the case for beginners. @Pit Viper does bring up an important point that you'll find repeated around here quite a bit: practice honing on cheap razors, because there is a very good chance that you'll make a serious mistake. No one likes to ruin or put excessive hone wear on a $200 razor, but it's not a big deal on a $12 razor. A waste, perhaps, but nothing you'll lose sleep over.

If you decide to buy from WD, and you're serious about giving straights a try, you might want to bite the bullet and buy 2 razors, a rich man's strop with a replacement piece of leather, and possibly his balsa strop (already made so you don't have to). Two razors means that if one gets too dull, or you accidentally tap the edge on something, you can still shave with a straight while either trying to rehone the other or while it is sent away to be honed. The rich man's strop is a bit nicer and comes with a cloth strop, which is probably a good idea if you are doing any honing at home. The extra piece of leather is so that once you get used to stropping you can easily swap out the nicked and battered original for a new, clean piece of leather.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Good advice in the previous replies.

I would NOT try to hone any razors until you have some experience shaving with straight razors. That means of course that you must buy your first one or two razors in Shave-Ready condition, already honed. Shaving teaches you a lot about razor anatomy and function, and lets you see the difference between shaving with what seems sharp to a knife sharpener, and what feels sharp to a razor user and honer.

If you can easily shave off arm hair with a knife, that is sharp enough. A good sharpness test for a pocketknife. But this means nothing from a razor. If you can sweep the razor 1/4" (2 or 3mm) ABOVE the skin of the forearm and see it neatly sever the tips of several hairs, then your razor is sharp. This is called "treetopping". But just being sharp is not always enough. A razor can be sharp but not be smooth and gentle on the face. You need to experience some good edges first, before you try to make one. Just imagine if you were painting as perfect a copy as possible, of the Mona Lisa. Now imagine you are trying to paint a perfect copy of the Mona Lisa, but you have never seen the original. You could think you did a great job, but not have a clue, and a discerning eye would see it immediately. You must first experience true razor sharpness before you can duplicate it.

I recommend NOT going straight to a pasted strop of any kind, right off a 4k stone. It would be quite acceptable to go to an 8k and then a 12k stone. Or to 3u film and then 1u film. From there, a properly set up and properly used progression of lapped balsa strops with diamond paste would give you an insanely sharp edge, and just the balsa with .1u diamond paste used after each shave will keep it sharp forever.

Lapping Film is a very cheap method to get started with. If you want to stick with stones, you could get an 8k and a 12k Naniwa, which are nice easy stones to work with. Remember that you must lap any stone when you get it, and occasionally thereafter, if you expect to hone razors with it. That is another subject altogether.

Since you are in Germany, you might want to spend a day or two in Solingen and look around the razor and cutlery shops there. Just remember that you need the shop to hone any razor that you buy. The factory edge is NOT going to be sharp enough. And be sure to give it the treetopping test. If it won't treetop, it isn't going to do a very good job of shaving your face.

Any decent shop should also have strops. Get a cheap one for now, because you will very likely put a few cuts in it while learning. Get a nicer one later, when you have some experience. I suggest a regular hanging strop, not a paddle, bench, or loom strop. This is simply a leather strap with some hardware at the top end to facilitate hanging on a hook, and maybe a D ring or handle at the bottom end. Some strops are plain at the bottom end, and that is okay. Some also have a second piece, that is canvas, linen, fire hose, felt, etc, but this is not really necessary.

 

[Pit Viper]

Good points all, esp re buying two razors and having one professionally honed (to serve as a reference).

Here's one way to do that:

2 x Zy Razor = $25 USD
1 x 3K/8K Hone = $22 - and/or - CNAT Hone = $35
1 x Small Strop = $6 (small but works well, can buy two in case of cuts)
1 x Paddle Strop+paste = $15
1 x Professional Honing = $30 (?)

Total = $98 - $139 (~120€)

As you can see, the 120€ budget goes quickly if you want to hone right off the bat...

I have used all of these products except for the CNAT. They are quite decent but by no means top shelf. But if I had that budget and was starting out, this is what I'd buy.

(I now use DMT, films, Shapton progression, coticle, SH 20K, etc – but not all on the same blade!)

Addendum: While I mention above that you could shave off of 4K+paste, I was NOT recommending it.

 

[buca3152]

Zys come shave ready by most accounts . I think they are not honed as well as I like my razors though. Most agree about that. But a short stropping session with some cromox is what I've heard many have done with great results. The 2 zys can be your honing practice razors when you start that. There will be plenty more razors though to buy when your proficient with the zys. Jmo. Your budget will have plenty left for.futire buys as the zys are about @ $8 shipped in the states.

 

[OtterLunacy]

Zys come shave ready by most accounts .

Personally, I'm 0/2 there. Both of mine failed at treetopping and the bevel did not quite reach the toe or heel by nearly 1/16 inch. I beat one of them into submission on my 1.5K; the other seems to have some geometry issues and has so far foiled my attempts to fully set the bevel. I guess it's better practice than on a poor vintage razor! Besides, at least they don't have the GD stabilizer. . .

 

[buca3152]

I guess I got lucky. I ordered about 30 of them early on and several loose here and there. We used to run honing meets in NY a few years back and I used to.give them away to the new guys. Never had issues but I know.people have. They are easier than gds like.you say.

 

[OtterLunacy]

Wow, that's a pretty good sample size--30+ all being (arguably) shave ready? Pretty darn good for Chinese blades! The only part that actually bothers me is how easily they begin rusting. Granted, I'm in Florida, Land of Rusty Objects, and my other razors can certainly start rusting if I'm not careful, but only these Chinese razors start rusting during my (admittedly long) shaves. I'm guessing it has to do with the relatively rough finish providing more surface area for the reaction to begin.

 

[Pit Viper]

The factory edge on my Zy was keener and sharper than that of my new Dovo. But it was also a bit rougher (some foil and micro-chipping). I used a 12K Shapton to smooth it out but energetic linen/leather stropping would probably work as well.

Lastly – lest I forget – this well-researched article is my reference for "it can be done with 4K."

...I demonstrate here that only two hones are required, one coarse hone for expeditiously setting the bevel and one fine hone for polishing away the apex damage created by the coarse hone. The second hone does not need to be any finer than 4k grit. It is also important to understand that scratches in the bevel are of no consequence...​

 

[Slash McCoy]

A half dozen pull strokes on the finisher (pulling the razor directly sideways on the stone, a half inch to an inch) followed by a half dozen regular laps, is good medicine for foil edge and other artifacts. Better than just stropping alone and much better than beating it to death on linen.

 

[Pit Viper]

A half dozen pull strokes on the finisher (pulling the razor directly sideways on the stone, a half inch to an inch) followed by a half dozen regular laps, is good medicine for foil edge and other artifacts. Better than just stropping alone and much better than beating it to death on linen.

Thanks, Slash. I'll give this technique a try!

 

[samwise]

Thanks for all the answers so far! They were very informative.
As a little update: I've bought a razor and strop kit from WD. I am pretty happy with it, although I need to say that the shave is less smooth than with a DE razor. And I am even used to an open comb (Muehle R41). After my secon shave with it I had some of the worst razorburn I ever had. But that was probably my own fault for becoming reckless and applying too much pressure.

CNAT Hone = $35

How would you rate this hone? I think about ordering it, but with shipping and additional costs (customs) I would pay around 50 euro. Is it still worth that much?

Since you are in Germany, you might want to spend a day or two in Solingen and look around the razor and cutlery shops there. Just remember that you need the shop to hone any razor that you buy. The factory edge is NOT going to be sharp enough. And be sure to give it the treetopping test. If it won't treetop, it isn't going to do a very good job of shaving your face.

That won't be too easy, I would have a journey of several hours. I don't think I am that commited (yet) xD.

If you decide to buy from WD, and you're serious about giving straights a try, you might want to bite the bullet and buy 2 razors, a rich man's strop with a replacement piece of leather, and possibly his balsa strop (already made so you don't have to). Two razors means that if one gets too dull, or you accidentally tap the edge on something, you can still shave with a straight while either trying to rehone the other or while it is sent away to be honed.

I did order, but I didn't order two razors. I will have to catch up on that. I think I will either buy another razor from whippeddog or some cheap one off of amazon. I haven't decided yet. But I'm leaning towards the WD.

And I do have one last question: is it really that complicated to hone a razor? The hardest part for honing in general was the angle (at least for me). And this part is not needed when sharpening a razor. Or am I missing something?

Thanks a lot to all of you and cheers!

 

[Slash McCoy]

Thanks for all the answers so far! They were very informative.
As a little update: I've bought a razor and strop kit from WD. I am pretty happy with it, although I need to say that the shave is less smooth than with a DE razor. And I am even used to an open comb (Muehle R41). After my secon shave with it I had some of the worst razorburn I ever had. But that was probably my own fault for becoming reckless and applying too much pressure.

Or possibly too high of a shave angle.

How would you rate this hone? I think about ordering it, but with shipping and additional costs (customs) I would pay around 50 euro. Is it still worth that much?

A C12k is sort of a crap shoot. You can be surprised to get a finisher that is a bit slow but very effective and consistent, and finishes very finely. Or you can get a rock that functions well only as a paperweight. At one time they were held in high regard since most of them did in fact work quite well as finishers and were cheap. More and more rocks thes ddays are being sold that are nothing special. You just pay a lot of money for a quite ordinary rock that has been cut into a rectangle for you and cheerfully sold to that gullible foreigner who will buy anything off ebay. Just saying. Who knows... it might be a very good stone. But if you are willing to pay that much, you may as well pay a bit more and get a nice Naniwa 12k synthetic. Better yet, forget about rocks. Don't be a Neanderthal cave man. Join the modern era and hone on lapping film.

I did order, but I didn't order two razors. I will have to catch up on that. I think I will either buy another razor from whippeddog or some cheap one off of amazon. I haven't decided yet. But I'm leaning towards the WD.

Good choice. MOST cheap new razors will be pretty much useless to you. Only a few can be honed and used successfully, and those usually require a fairly proficcient honer to make ready for use. There have been reports recently of the "W" series Gold Dollar razors coming from the factory with decent edges. There are some vendors who specialize in honing the regular Gold Dollars and selling them shave ready for a good price. Same for the ZY razors. And there are some ebay vendors who sell shave ready razors but most ebay sellers do not even know what shave ready means, and do not even shave with straight razors. Another WD razor is a fairly safe purchase, as well as anything listed on BST.

april7th1989 is one ebay vendor I can recommend. Notice that he has a lot of razors in his ebay store, and his feedback ratings are good. That is an indicator that he moves a lot of razors and that the buyers of his shave ready razors at least are not angry with him for representing them as shave ready but selling them in less than shave ready condition. Look for those two characteristics if you insist on buying from ebay. If there is any doubt, post here, remembering of course that you are not allowed to post a link to an open auction.

life2short1971 and buca3152, both members here, sometimes have shave ready Gold Dollars for sale, and member Seraphim sometimes has very nice looking modified Gold Dollars to sell. Another member here, Jarrod, has an actual shop and he sells all his razors shave ready. www.thesuperiorshave.com is the url.

And I do have one last question: is it really that complicated to hone a razor? The hardest part for honing in general was the angle (at least for me). And this part is not needed when sharpening a razor. Or am I missing something?

Thanks a lot to all of you and cheers!

Proper alignment of razor and hone, and balance of pressure across the blade are critical, but easily addressed by simply honing in hand instead of on a bench, table, or counter. Pressure is critical, but regulating it can be learned quickly enough, and again, honing in hand will help a lot. Selecting appropriate honing media is important. The hardest part to learn and probably the most important is understanding what exactly is happening to the razor as it is worked on the honing surface, and how to confine this to productive removal of steel so far as possible. Things like the flexing upward of a thin edge cannot really be seen by the naked eye as you hone. You also need to understand scratch patterns and the fundamentals behind progressive honing. This is what I consider the basics, stripped down and (over)simplified. You can delve much, much more deeply into this rabbit hole if you wish.

The simplest way to get started is to forget about honing dull or new razors from scratch, for now. Begin with one or two shave ready razors, get yourself a good finisher, and when the first one seems like it is not as sharp as it once was, give it a touchup on the finisher. Hone lightly until it is sharp again. Leave all the alchemy for later. If you don't succeed, you will not have caused much damage, and you can of course send it out for corrective action. Most of your honing, regardless, will consist of simply refreshing the edge on a razor that you have dulled through normal use. Later you will probably want to try your hand at setting the bevel and running a whole progression on a razor. That is when things start to get a bit more complicated.

 

[Bbb34]

Thanks for all the answers so far! They were very informative.
As a little update: I've bought a razor and strop kit from WD. I am pretty happy with it, although I need to say that the shave is less smooth than with a DE razor. And I am even used to an open comb (Muehle R41). After my secon shave with it I had some of the worst razorburn I ever had. But that was probably my own fault for becoming reckless and applying too much pressure.

My first few attempts were similar, crazy AS burn after, and I'm pretty sure I didn't use too much pressure, probably more to do with angle/technique as @Slash McCoy suggested.

After about shave #15 or so, it's significantly reduced, but still get a bit of sting, none with my DE. The thing is, I cannot think of anything that I radically changed, other than adding a bit more water to my lather (comparing to what I usually do with DE razors)... well I did purchase significantly nicer razor since those first few, so, maybe that's it.

I can now shave pretty quickly and get fairly close shave, but am still getting better results, closer, smoother and zero burn from aftershave with my DE razor. That said, we're talking years of experience with DE and setup that's just perfect for my taste Vs. only 1.5 month with straight, so time will tell.