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First hone, followed by first shave

@Eastcoast30 just remembered that you can get different results with different finishers. I found that 0.5um slightly degraded the result and 0.25um even more so. Don't stop just because the edge feels as though it is being degraded.

When I got to 0.1um was were I found my best edges. To further improve the edge, I finish my diamond pasted balsa stropping with about a dozen or two short X strokes, both pulling and pushing the blade across the balsa strop. I found that this improves the comfort of the shave.
Thank you!
 
Well, the 12k shave was uneventful, no nicks, no weepers. But it did seem to tug just a bit. But not to the point where there was irritation. So I guess I would call it an acceptable shave. I have a new Wacker from Griffith, which Matt honed for me. That one GLIDES. Well, obviously Matt is worlds better at honing than I am. I know my blade is sharp, it pops hanging hairs with ease. And my shave is quite smooth - no stubble to speak of. So the holy grail I seek is for a smoother shave.

So here is the question I throw out: which would be more "buttery", jnat or balsa/paste progression? I know it's a personal preference thing, just looking for different viewpoints. Thanks.
 

Slash McCoy

I freehand dog rockets
Well, the 12k shave was uneventful, no nicks, no weepers. But it did seem to tug just a bit. But not to the point where there was irritation. So I guess I would call it an acceptable shave. I have a new Wacker from Griffith, which Matt honed for me. That one GLIDES. Well, obviously Matt is worlds better at honing than I am. I know my blade is sharp, it pops hanging hairs with ease. And my shave is quite smooth - no stubble to speak of. So the holy grail I seek is for a smoother shave.

So here is the question I throw out: which would be more "buttery", jnat or balsa/paste progression? I know it's a personal preference thing, just looking for different viewpoints. Thanks.
Either one can be very comfortable. It mostly boils down to technique. The balsa is a lot cheaper than most Jnats of decent size suitable for finishing, especially when you add in your slurry stones. The Jnat in skilled hands can approach but not match the .1u balsa in sharpness. There are particular techniques that need to be used to get an edge that shaves as comfortably as a Jnat. The one you know, and know WELL, whether Jnat or balsa, will give you the best results by far. If you are expert in both, I suspect you will find them about equal in comfort, maybe a very slim advantage to the Jnat, and the balsa edge a good bit sharper. To reach that level of expertise is I think a bit easier on the balsa.

Compared to synthetic stones or lapping film, the comfort prize goes to the Jnat in expert hands, and I will even give the Jnat the nod for sharpness, but only if the honer is pretty good at selecting and using it, remembering also that the slurry stones are just as important as the base stone.

Certainly the Jnat is more interesting and challenging. Myself, I don't want a challenge. I want quick, easy, cheap, effective results, the better, the better. Others fall in love with the Jnats and won't have anything else. YMMV. You might feel the call some day. You might decide you want to give it a go.
 
Either one can be very comfortable. It mostly boils down to technique. The balsa is a lot cheaper than most Jnats of decent size suitable for finishing, especially when you add in your slurry stones. The Jnat in skilled hands can approach but not match the .1u balsa in sharpness. There are particular techniques that need to be used to get an edge that shaves as comfortably as a Jnat. The one you know, and know WELL, whether Jnat or balsa, will give you the best results by far. If you are expert in both, I suspect you will find them about equal in comfort, maybe a very slim advantage to the Jnat, and the balsa edge a good bit sharper. To reach that level of expertise is I think a bit easier on the balsa.

Compared to synthetic stones or lapping film, the comfort prize goes to the Jnat in expert hands, and I will even give the Jnat the nod for sharpness, but only if the honer is pretty good at selecting and using it, remembering also that the slurry stones are just as important as the base stone.

Certainly the Jnat is more interesting and challenging. Myself, I don't want a challenge. I want quick, easy, cheap, effective results, the better, the better. Others fall in love with the Jnats and won't have anything else. YMMV. You might feel the call some day. You might decide you want to give it a go.
Thanks. I'm finishing up on the balsa now and will try a shave in a few days. After that, likely the jnat for comparison. I suspect it will take some time to become proficient and make a good comparison.
 
The balsa will be significantly easier, I mean WAYYYYY easier to get good results from than the JNat. That being said, a high quality natural stone used with good technique, and a good progression will easily deliver an edge that is just as keen or more than that off lapping films finished on balsa, and in my opinion it is a much smoother, more comfortable edge.

A proper edge off of the right JNat goes through your beard like a hot knife through butter. I have always found synthetic edges to be sharp but harsh, where the JNat edge is every bit as sharp, but silky smooth. The difficulty here is that there are so many more variables when using naturals that nailing the edge comes from a ton of trial and error.

Each stone itself is different, each nagura is different, the amount of slurry you create, how long you work the slurry, how quickly you begin to water the slurry down all effect the final edge, and there is no simple step by step instruction that works across the board with all JNats. "The Method" is pretty much the polar opposite of this, very few variables thus very few places to go wrong; this is probably why it yields such great results right off the bat.
 
I tried my ozuku out with three naguras a while back. It was on a beater that was toast anyway. But I wanted to get a feel for the stone. While the stone is only about 6" long, it is 3" wide and dead flat. It made for an easy time doing X strokes. I did not get too far with it, as I wanted to get back to the razor I have been working on. But the feel, or feedback, from the jnat just felt "better" than the Naniwa stones. I'm not sure what I mean by "better" but there was something about being on a real stone, as opposed to a manmade brick. And the idea of working slurries and having the particles break down as you work seems like a more natural progression than jumping from one number stone or paste to the next number. And as I said earlier, this will take some time.
 
I tried my ozuku out with three naguras a while back. It was on a beater that was toast anyway. But I wanted to get a feel for the stone. While the stone is only about 6" long, it is 3" wide and dead flat. It made for an easy time doing X strokes. I did not get too far with it, as I wanted to get back to the razor I have been working on. But the feel, or feedback, from the jnat just felt "better" than the Naniwa stones. I'm not sure what I mean by "better" but there was something about being on a real stone, as opposed to a manmade brick. And the idea of working slurries and having the particles break down as you work seems like a more natural progression than jumping from one number stone or paste to the next number. And as I said earlier, this will take some time.
Honestly, while the Naniwa stones function great, and they are my go to when using synthetics, they are not terribly pleasant to use in my opinion. The feedback on them isn't spectacular, and there is nothing satisfying about using them to me. In my eyes they are just a small step above lapping films in terms of feel and enjoyment while sharpening.

The feel and feedback of a JNat is miles better in my opinion. Plus, though it doesn't contribute to sharpness in any way, the history of natural stones is much cooler to me, and the smell of a JNat makes using them even more pleasant.
 
Honestly, while the Naniwa stones function great, and they are my go to when using synthetics, they are not terribly pleasant to use in my opinion. The feedback on them isn't spectacular, and there is nothing satisfying about using them to me. In my eyes they are just a small step above lapping films in terms of feel and enjoyment while sharpening.

The feel and feedback of a JNat is miles better in my opinion. Plus, though it doesn't contribute to sharpness in any way, the history of natural stones is much cooler to me, and the smell of a JNat makes using them even more pleasant.
It's a primitive thing. I can't wait to get back to it. I have a tenjyou, mejiro and toma and I really want to learn to work them.
 

Slash McCoy

I freehand dog rockets
The balsa will be significantly easier, I mean WAYYYYY easier to get good results from than the JNat. That being said, a high quality natural stone used with good technique, and a good progression will easily deliver an edge that is just as keen or more than that off lapping films finished on balsa, and in my opinion it is a much smoother, more comfortable edge.

A proper edge off of the right JNat goes through your beard like a hot knife through butter. I have always found synthetic edges to be sharp but harsh, where the JNat edge is every bit as sharp, but silky smooth. The difficulty here is that there are so many more variables when using naturals that nailing the edge comes from a ton of trial and error.

Each stone itself is different, each nagura is different, the amount of slurry you create, how long you work the slurry, how quickly you begin to water the slurry down all effect the final edge, and there is no simple step by step instruction that works across the board with all JNats. "The Method" is pretty much the polar opposite of this, very few variables thus very few places to go wrong; this is probably why it yields such great results right off the bat.

Uh-uh. Jnat can't match the balsa if the balsa is set up and used correctly. Not for sharpness, anyway. Comfort, yeah, no problem. The cloudy finish from Jnat honing can have a very nice feel. But properly used .1u balsa is no slacker in comfort, either. I been doing this for a while now. Compared the balsa edge to Jnat edges from acknowledged artists with the Jnat, not my own Jnat edges. A Jnat edge can be very very good, but it won't be sharper than the 200,000 grit diamond set down deeply into the grain of the balsa, and used with all the tricks that the collective wisdom here has come up with to absolutely optimize its performance.

I wouldn't be able to do this so casually with any Jnat edge on a GD66. Close? Yeh maybe. I wouldn't even try, with my own Jnat edge on a 66. I know I'm not good enough.
More Gold Dollar Stunt Shaving! Shaving several weeks growth with a Gold Dollar #66 Straight Razor! - YouTube
 
Uh-uh. Jnat can't match the balsa if the balsa is set up and used correctly. Not for sharpness, anyway. Comfort, yeah, no problem. The cloudy finish from Jnat honing can have a very nice feel. But properly used .1u balsa is no slacker in comfort, either. I been doing this for a while now. Compared the balsa edge to Jnat edges from acknowledged artists with the Jnat, not my own Jnat edges. A Jnat edge can be very very good, but it won't be sharper than the 200,000 grit diamond set down deeply into the grain of the balsa, and used with all the tricks that the collective wisdom here has come up with to absolutely optimize its performance.

I wouldn't be able to do this so casually with any Jnat edge on a GD66. Close? Yeh maybe. I wouldn't even try, with my own Jnat edge on a 66. I know I'm not good enough.
More Gold Dollar Stunt Shaving! Shaving several weeks growth with a Gold Dollar #66 Straight Razor! - YouTube
We are going to have to agree to disagree here. I haven't tried specifically one of your balsa edges, but I have used one in the past from someone who I trust to be proficient with "The Method" as well as trying it myself recently after all of the hype, and I would say at best they were as sharp as one of my edges off my favorite Nakayama or Ozuku, and miles less smooth.

I know "The Method" is your baby, and it certainly has its advantages when it comes to getting a wicked sharp edge with minimal skill or effort, but I do not for one second believe that it is the end all, be all of sharp edges. It undoubtedly produces great results, but there is more than one way to skin a cat.

Maybe I'll have to buy one of your gold dollars someday to get to try a real-deal, Slash McCoy balsa edge, but for now I stand by my overpriced rocks, and their ability to produce an edge that is truly something special.
 
It's a very interesting discussion. I'm new to razors but have been sharpening knives for many decades. I have a feel for synthetic stones and diamond stones. I have also worked with arkies and sapphire stones. I believe that if you go down to .1µ that is probably as sharp as you're gonna get. And I suppose that one can break down the jnat slurry to such a fine degree that it may reach or approach that .1µ finish. Likely that takes a lot of skill with the jnat and naguras. And in the end, I think you just use water on the jnat.

So, in my mind, it's a question of how sharp does one need for shaving? My 12k shave was plenty sharp. It left me with a smooth shave and it cut the hanging hairs. But it tugged just a tad. I'm hoping to work towards something smoother. I've just finished the balsa/paste progression and will shave with that in a few days. After that, I will try my jnat. When first working the jnat on a beater, I saw that it left a frosty blue finish on the bevel. How interesting! I've read that some jnats do that. So I am wondering if that frosty blue edge will be both sufficiently sharp and smooth.

As an engineer, I see things in terms of quantitative analysis: pounds, microns, watts, degrees, etc. But honing adds to science the additional dimension of art, skill, feel, etc. So I will practice for a while, certainly enjoying it. Then maybe I will start a thread on the merits of various finishing media and methods.
 
It's a very interesting discussion. I'm new to razors but have been sharpening knives for many decades. I have a feel for synthetic stones and diamond stones. I have also worked with arkies and sapphire stones. I believe that if you go down to .1µ that is probably as sharp as you're gonna get. And I suppose that one can break down the jnat slurry to such a fine degree that it may reach or approach that .1µ finish. Likely that takes a lot of skill with the jnat and naguras. And in the end, I think you just use water on the jnat.

So, in my mind, it's a question of how sharp does one need for shaving? My 12k shave was plenty sharp. It left me with a smooth shave and it cut the hanging hairs. But it tugged just a tad. I'm hoping to work towards something smoother. I've just finished the balsa/paste progression and will shave with that in a few days. After that, I will try my jnat. When first working the jnat on a beater, I saw that it left a frosty blue finish on the bevel. How interesting! I've read that some jnats do that. So I am wondering if that frosty blue edge will be both sufficiently sharp and smooth.

As an engineer, I see things in terms of quantitative analysis: pounds, microns, watts, degrees, etc. But honing adds to science the additional dimension of art, skill, feel, etc. So I will practice for a while, certainly enjoying it. Then maybe I will start a thread on the merits of various finishing media and methods.
The ultimate challenge would be to shave off your beard and then you will have you hands full with the shave itself:)
 
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