Finessing the Jnats
- Thread starter MasterOfPups
- Start date
Why tape is desirable? It makes it easier to hone since it essentially removes the spine and makes the bevel smaller... letting the edge be honed straight without nearly as much impact from the condition or shape of the razor. It eliminates small amounts of warpage or defective grind and significantly drops more severe cases. In general it makes everything much easier. It also prevents spine wear which many people find an aesthetic positive.
The downside is it means you essentially have to rebevel the razor if you ever want to hone it with less or no tape. It possibly (my suspicion) makes stropping less effective. It increases the final angle of the edge (not a downside for all blades, but it is for most, especially the heavier ones that tend to most benefit from taping).
Big downside is when you buy one someone taped and sold as shave ready looking pretty and straight... only to find out the razor is a warped nightmare to hone without tape. It's very misleading to tape, hone, and sell. I'd liken it to hooking a car up to a towing vehicle with invisible wire and posting a video of it being "driven" down the highway, then selling it as running great with said video as proof.
The downside is it means you essentially have to rebevel the razor if you ever want to hone it with less or no tape. It possibly (my suspicion) makes stropping less effective. It increases the final angle of the edge (not a downside for all blades, but it is for most, especially the heavier ones that tend to most benefit from taping).
Big downside is when you buy one someone taped and sold as shave ready looking pretty and straight... only to find out the razor is a warped nightmare to hone without tape. It's very misleading to tape, hone, and sell. I'd liken it to hooking a car up to a towing vehicle with invisible wire and posting a video of it being "driven" down the highway, then selling it as running great with said video as proof.
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
It is not in and of itself desireable unless the primary bevel angle is very very acute. It is a workaround for when you have a huge bevel plane which makes it difficult to hone. When you have as keen an edge as you can get but have trouble getting it into a very high level of sharpness, adding a few taped laps can give you a better apex development at only a small increase in edge bevel angle.
I’m guessing that applies to rejuvenating old blades that have not been handled well?
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I've been honing razors for over 25 years and I agree with Slash and Slice. Every blade has its own personality and certain types of blades under certain circumstances can benefit from tape, but as a general rule I don't tape unless I have to.
Slice brings up a good point that I have noticed in the past. I have had quite a few people bring me razors that cut great after honing but lost an edge quickly even with lots of stropping. They usually think their stropping is at fault. under magnification I could see that the shoulder of the bevel was slightly more shiny than the apex. My theory is that the slight difference in angle between honing with tape and stropping without causes the bevel shoulder to be polished more than the apex so that stropping does little to keep the edge sharp unless more pressure is used. In many cases I found re-bevel and honing without tape fixed the issue.
Another issue I've seen is if the coarser grit stones aren't absolutely flat but the finer finishing stones are, then you will hit the apex with the coarser ones (due to a slight bow), but that edge will not get polished with the finishing stone.
Honing with too much pressure can cause deflection, again, hitting the bevel shoulder instead of the apex. Also can cause rolled and wire edge. Tape can mask this issue. (less likely an issue with thicker blades)
Then, as always, make sure the bevel is ground all the way to the apex with the coarse stones before moving up, every progression. ESPECIALLY if you don't know whether the bevel was previously set with or without tape. (more likely to be issue with thicker blades/bevels)
Tape is a shortcut to the apex, and of course protects spine if that really matters to you. The fact that with tape you quickly hit the edge tells me that one or more of the stones aren't true, you didn't make it all the way on coarser stones, or you are honing with too much pressure.
Seems like you are really close to a great edge. Good luck!
Slice brings up a good point that I have noticed in the past. I have had quite a few people bring me razors that cut great after honing but lost an edge quickly even with lots of stropping. They usually think their stropping is at fault. under magnification I could see that the shoulder of the bevel was slightly more shiny than the apex. My theory is that the slight difference in angle between honing with tape and stropping without causes the bevel shoulder to be polished more than the apex so that stropping does little to keep the edge sharp unless more pressure is used. In many cases I found re-bevel and honing without tape fixed the issue.
Another issue I've seen is if the coarser grit stones aren't absolutely flat but the finer finishing stones are, then you will hit the apex with the coarser ones (due to a slight bow), but that edge will not get polished with the finishing stone.
Honing with too much pressure can cause deflection, again, hitting the bevel shoulder instead of the apex. Also can cause rolled and wire edge. Tape can mask this issue. (less likely an issue with thicker blades)
Then, as always, make sure the bevel is ground all the way to the apex with the coarse stones before moving up, every progression. ESPECIALLY if you don't know whether the bevel was previously set with or without tape. (more likely to be issue with thicker blades/bevels)
Tape is a shortcut to the apex, and of course protects spine if that really matters to you. The fact that with tape you quickly hit the edge tells me that one or more of the stones aren't true, you didn't make it all the way on coarser stones, or you are honing with too much pressure.
Seems like you are really close to a great edge. Good luck!
- Thread starter
- #26
Thanks guys ! Lots of good info there !
Master of Pups
I think you just got a Master Class there in those 25 posts.
good luck
Alx
I think you just got a Master Class there in those 25 posts.
good luck
Alx
- Thread starter
- #28
Yes, exactly what I was looking for !
Good stuff! I benefited from your post and question! Thanks all.
Not sure how much i can help as an Italian with hair that can put titanium to shame but HHT always gave me false promises. Mirroring what Rugger said, I have an Ozuku that responds the best with slurry from a DMT plate. It seems the DMT slurry gets the edge over that tipping point then it settles in and finishes. Keep in mind this is for quench no temper 01 tool steel.
- Thread starter
- #31
After playing around with a couple of other razors and comparing scratch patterns, I'm thinking most of the issue was pressure related. If I am doing a touch up, I find it easy to start off light, but after working on a bevel I think I am having issues with knowing when to let up and how gradually.
The advice on checking each stage with a loupe is something I am going to have to remember. I started thinking that I could go by feel, but apparently need more experience at that.
The advice on checking each stage with a loupe is something I am going to have to remember. I started thinking that I could go by feel, but apparently need more experience at that.
Steve56
Ask me about shaving naked!
Too much pressure, or unevenly applied pressure is a very common problem when learning to hone. I had to learn that too just like everyone else. Just for hoots and giggles, try seeing how little pressure that you can hone with. Try to do the lightest pressure that you can control the contact on the hone.
Feel won’t take the place of a loupe, not even close. Feel won’t tell you if you have a weak toe or heel, a loupe and HHT will.
Feel won’t take the place of a loupe, not even close. Feel won’t tell you if you have a weak toe or heel, a loupe and HHT will.
How do you distinguish keenness from sharpness?
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
The Science of Sharp site actually defines and differentiates between the two. TBH, I am a bit more philistine in that regard and to me they are the same, and have to do with a very subjective thing, which is sheer cutting power, and not particular dimensions or angles or any other numerical thingies. Wrong, maybe, but I can't always be right.
AFAIK he only differentiates between those in such an explicit manner so as to have a consistent way to describe the sectional geometry of the blades. One is used for included angle of the bevel (or rather, thickness behind the apex at a certain distance from it) and one for actual apex width. This is helpful in those cases where the honing method might create somewhat of a convex edge. Makes sense to me.
This does apparently happen at the micro level on coarser hones and the bevel gets progressively less convex as the stones used are finer. He had a cross-sectional image of a blade honed on a SG20k that was nearly perfectly straight and had next to no convexity. Look around the site and you will see the differing levels with differing hones.
This does apparently happen at the micro level on coarser hones and the bevel gets progressively less convex as the stones used are finer. He had a cross-sectional image of a blade honed on a SG20k that was nearly perfectly straight and had next to no convexity. Look around the site and you will see the differing levels with differing hones.
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- Thread starter
- #36
Light pressure, and stropping then doing a few more final passes is working consistently now.
Loupes have always been a pain for me, so I recently snagged a vintage Graf stereo microscope off ebay for under a hundred bucks. It is limited to either 30x or 60x with the current eyepieces, but that is plenty for razors. And it has a top light as well.
With the extra wide field of view and a 3D image, it is way easier to see what is going on with the bevel. No more squinting through a loupe and having my contact lens pop out...
Loupes have always been a pain for me, so I recently snagged a vintage Graf stereo microscope off ebay for under a hundred bucks. It is limited to either 30x or 60x with the current eyepieces, but that is plenty for razors. And it has a top light as well.
With the extra wide field of view and a 3D image, it is way easier to see what is going on with the bevel. No more squinting through a loupe and having my contact lens pop out...
