Finessing the Jnats

[MasterOfPups]

I had a razor tonight that would treetop well, but I couldn't get a good hht all over the edge. The razor is a Heljestrand that looks to be a quarter or half hollow with a relatively wide bevel, considering most of my razors are full hollow. I knew the hard steel and wider bevel would take longer, but just wasn't getting anywhere.

I was using an Ozuku on water at first, because I thought it was nearly finished. When I realized it wasn't, I cleaned everything and tried 3 different tomos, with the same results each time. Went to two different suitas to see if they liked the steel better, no real change on either one. Back to the Ozuku on water for a good long while - it was right on the verge of a great edge but just wouldn't give it up. My cheapie high school surplus microscope did not reveal any issues with the bevel or scratch pattern.

Finally, I admitted temporary defeat, added one layer of tape, and after 30 strokes, was getting a solid hht all along the blade.

So now I'm wondering - what are some of the tricks you guys use when your razor doesn't want to give up that last little bit ? I hate to use tape except on wedges, it just seems 'unfair' for some reason.

 

[stone and strop]

HHT means nothing.
Try shaving with it before abandoning the process.

 

[MasterOfPups]

Oh, I suspect it would have shaved fine, but I was on a mission. My previous razor clipped that hair easily, and I wanted tonight's razor to do the same.

 

[ScottChapin]

HHT means nothing.
Try shaving with it before abandoning the process.

I cannot even get the HHT to work. Maybe it’s because my hair is very fine. I can get an excellent shave and the HHT won’t work.


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[MasterOfPups]

Mine is too fine as well, I got a hair bundle from ebay for 8 bucks.

It works well for comparisons and saves a lot of arm hair. I keep a sharpened razor handy to test a particular hair then sharpen the new razor until it cuts the same.

I'm sure a lot of people will see that as unnecessary, but it sure cuts down on the witch hazel burn below my chin from trying out a razor that isn't up to snuff.

 

[MasterOfPups]

There are tons of topics on hht theories - I am mainly interested in jnat tips, such as how to know when to try a different stone, when to switch tomos, changing up the slurry, more water/less water - stuff like that...

 

[ScottChapin]

There are tons of topics on hht theories - I am mainly interested in jnat tips, such as how to know when to try a different stone, when to switch tomos, changing up the slurry, more water/less water - stuff like that...

I’d like to know as well. I thought the Nagura was the stone you worked on the sharpening stone to produce a slurry. You make it seem otherwise.


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[stone and strop]

I cannot even get the HHT to work. Maybe it’s because my hair is very fine. I can get an excellent shave and the HHT won’t work.


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Mine is fine as well. I get a great HHT most the time but when I don't I wont go back to the hones without shaving. Many times stropping on the forearm to remove any oils from the edge will give you the hair trimming you're after but not always.
I have had fantastic edges that won't pass a HHT.

 

[MasterOfPups]

Yes, Naguras are used to produce slurry, but you don't have to use them. There are different stones that you can use in a progression pretty much like the different arks or synthetics.

The prefinishers and middle grit jnats work best with slurry, but when you get to a finish stone, if your edge is almost 'there', its perfectly fine to hone on plain water.

Naguras are generally used when you have one bench stone and want it to do the work of several stones by changing the grit of the slurry instead of changing the stone.


Jnats can be about as simple or as complicated as you want to make them. Which makes them very interesting, in my opinion.

 

[stone and strop]

but when you get to a finish stone, if your edge is almost 'there', its perfectly fine to hone on plain water.

I think this is more stone dependent than a generalization.

 

[Steve56]

If it is ‘almost’ there you should not be on a finisher. ‘Almost there’ means that you’re not ready for prime time.

If you’re proficient at HHT or whatever test that you use, even shaving, get out the loupe. If you get the light right on the apex you’ll see it; a hairline bright section, sometimes only on one side, an edge (apex) that is less than straight, bits of fin, etc. Use the loupe with every grit as you move up - sometimes you can see things as the bevel picks up polish, usually 5k and up, that you can’t see at 1-2k. Light stropping after each grit helps to see imperfections with the loupe as it polishes the bevel a little.

Hard steel isn’t immune to a hone, especially fast ones like Shapton Glass HR, and some jnats. It may take a few re-honings to get the bevel and spine in ‘congruence’ with each other and get the edge perfectly straight and perfectly developed. I get in this situation pretty often because I like hard steel, and I prefer to go slowly with a valuable razor like a Heljestrand, Tanifuji, etc To make sure that I don’t remove more steel than is absolutely necessary. It’s OK To miss perfection as long as you eventually get there.

If it just isn’t cooperating after a couple of re-finishes, I go back to a Shapton Glass 2k or 4k and start the bevel over. It should pass HHT at 4-5k after light stropping. If you’re having trouble with an overground heel, sometimes a layer of tape helps. Even 1 mil Kapton can make the stone hit a weak heel.

 

[Slash McCoy]

I, too, hate to use tape when not absolutely necessary. A very wide bevel surface in very hard steel could be said to be such a situation. But you can give yourself some help by using synthetics of appropriate grit for bevel setting and intermediate work, and the Jnat for prefinish and finishing stages. Another thing that I have done is hand sanding the blade. When carefully done you can thin the belly and so also the top part of the bevel. This of course narrows the bevel surface. And a narrow bevel will hone much more easily. The presence of etching on the blade that you want to preserve is of course a factor, and also there is FOSU (Fear Of Screwing Up), if it is a much cherished razor or one with considerable value. But sometimes the thing to do is to set a good bevel and finish as well as you can, and then tape for the last dozen or so laps on the finisher. This kind of prevents use of the pasted balsa for maintenance, but if you don't use it anyway, then a compound bevel can work well. Especially if the natural bevel angle is very acute.

 

[Toro Blanco]

Very well put Steve, I could not have said it better myself!

 

[Rugger007]

Use your Jnat with slurry generated from a diamond plate. Hone ad hine some more, dilute and go at it again. Keep doing to almost clear water. Clean the stone, raise a light tomo slurry and keep hoping to almost clear/clear water. Put the stone down but do not wash or rinse, strop the blade on linen for 30 ish laps keeping the linen taught. Go back to the Jnat and hone with the lightest of pressure until the blade undercuts the water and finish on leather. Your base stone, with DN slurry will get you 98% of the way there and the tomo will finish it off. Asano Nagura, IMO, are an old-world technique and complicate and confuse the process with such wildly varried results from blade to blade, and when your talking about multiple slurries of this and 2 tomo's of that it's become all the more challenging, confusing and time consuming. The DN slurry easily replaces the entire Nagura progression and the results are easily repeatable blade to blade and saves you loads of time and frustration.

 

[goliat77]

For me it seems you never reached the very edge before you used tape and formed a second bevel whith a shallower angle.

 

[ScottChapin]

For me it seems you never reached the very edge before you used tape and formed a second bevel whith a shallower angle.

This confuses me. Tape would raise the spine off the stone. That would increase the angle between the blade and stone. The apex angle would be greater or more obtuse.


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[Slash McCoy]

This confuses me. Tape would raise the spine off the stone. That would increase the angle between the blade and stone. The apex angle would be greater or more obtuse.


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You are correct. The final bevel at the edge is increased when tape is added at the finish. The primary bevel remains as it was.

 

[goliat77]

Sorry for the confusion. I wanted to say that he ground with a too flat angle before using tape.

 

[ScottChapin]

Sorry for the confusion. I wanted to say that he ground with a too flat angle before using tape.

So a “duller” edge is preferable?


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[ScottChapin]

You are correct. The final bevel at the edge is increased when tape is added at the finish. The primary bevel remains as it was.

It gets me twisted up trying to figure why such would be desirable.


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