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Finally.... an actual definition of "silvertip"

Well fellas... here it is. After having spoke with multiple badger suppliers directly, a british badger hair sorting/sterilizing firm, and more than half a dozen manufactures directly, I can now describe with confidence WHAT "silvertip" badger hair is.

Silvertip badger hair is an incredibly straight forward term that simply describes a general "class" of badger hair, simply put it has 2 qualifications #1 that it be hair from the back/neck area of the badger #2 that it have a silver coloration at the tips. That... is..... it. Period. An Edwin Jagger "Silvertip" much like a Shavemac "Silvertip" or a Rooney "Silvertip" is in fact the REAL deal, genuine article, and IS in fact SILVERTIP.

This "deep black, white tip, upland" stuff is a TOTALLY different category. It is NOT "Silvertip" and in badger gradings is considered a different "grade" of badger hair, but the common descriptive term "silvertip" which originated to describe to the Chinese (RE: Language Barrier) what type of badger hair was desired is NOT an actual grade of badger hair. Truth is, gradings of badger hairs do not have fluffly names like "best, pure, silvertip, upland white" and if YOU research/source a sorter/supplier and ask them for the aformentioned "grades" of badger hair, they will not have a clue as to what you are talking about. Badger hair is actually "graded" with some for of letter/number system, which I will not speak in depth about, as I really don't know much about it, other than some documents Adam Mendelson had sent me regarding it, and the english (kinda) speaking fellow I spoke with in Asia.

My conclusion thus far, from what manufactures of these brushes have told me directly, is that there is really no discernable "benefit" of these "high mountain" and "upland" badger hairs, and that they are primarily manufactured/offered due to customer demand. In fact, the primary differences tend to be in HOW these "high end" brushes are knotted, cut, shaped, formed, packed, etc - which then provide a different overall "effect" thus giving the perception of the "hair" having these "superlative" qualities when in all actuality it is primarily the knot itself. In fact.... one gentleman went as far as to say - if you were to take 2 of the EXACT same brushes, one with the "3" tiered coloration, and one with the "2" tiered coloration, there would be no realized benefit other than asthetics.

While "Manchurian, High Mountain White, Finest" may feel a little different... it really per se isn't "better" at all... it is simply a more uncommon, and as a result expensive hair. Most of this is a "mental" thing - that if you pay so much $ for a brush you by nature trick yourself into perceiving it is "better."

Bottom line.... if you feel the minute difference in terms of feel, of these "ULTRA-rare" hairs to be your optimal desired characteristics, and the tremendous cost associated with this "upgrade" is of no consequence - by all means indulge. If you just want to own a genuine "Silvertip" shaving brush, and have a damn fine shaving brush - buy a Edwin Jagger, Simpson Super, Shavemac Silvertip, Savile Row Silvertip, Kent, etc with confidence... as you my friend WILL be getting the "real deal" genuine silvertip. Again Rooney, Plisson, Simpson "Ultra Premo" hairs are NOT silvertip - they have white tips, and are of a whole different breed.

See for yourself.... (Below) the "whitest of whites" Rooney Finest isn't a whole lot whiter than a run of the mill - 3 tierd Simpson Chubby 2 Super at the tips. Truth is... without having even used it - I would take the Chubby 2 Super over the Rooney Finest in a HEARTBEAT, as it is a hell of a lot more brush, at 60% less $. While there are an awful lot of fellas preachin' this whole "black to the roots, white at the tip" bunk, many of them don't even have these brushes to use/compare to one another, and are still getting poor newbies all excited and encouraging them to drop heavy coin on these things. I got 'em in my lap, showing you side by side pictures, and I am telling you there isn't much of a difference, save your money..... don't get caught up in the hype.

(Special Note: If you are "shaving gear obsessed" and are buying it for what it is - something rare and uncommon, again - by all means go for it... I have/do. This has been an "informational" bit for new guys who do not know first hand the difference/benefits or lack their of, of the different badger hairs. I personally am happy with the "ultra premo" brushes I have purchased, but that still does not change the fact that there is little benefit from them versus a standard "high end" brush- and these "ultra premo's" are absurdly and unreasonably expensive.)

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Thank you Joel. This is a bit of information that I am MOST happy to see come to light. As I have long suspicioned after some number of correspondence with vendors, this whole High Mountain White, Finest, Manchurian nonsense was greatly overhyped. I distinctly remember that one member over at wetshavers flatly passed on a Manchurian Simpson after talking with someone at Simpson's about the nature of the bristle. He did not elaborate with the board about his communications with Simpson other than to say he was convinced that it did not warrant it's exhorbitant price. Like you, I say fine and dandy to those who obsess about these brushes. Certain things could/should be bought just for the hell of it. However, I am sorry to see so many newbs wringing their hands over which $350-500 brush to purchase. In the mean time they are missing out on MOST of the fun parts of wetshaving. Trying new or different shave lathers, colognes, or most importantly(as any experienced wetshaver will tell you)a really super+ A/S product. To me, that last is the holy grail. Great brushes and lathers abound. A true A+ aftershave is rare as hens teeth. I eagerly await your brush war comparo and the results. I think we'll all be surprised to say the least.

Todd
 
Phog Allen said:
Thank you Joel. This is a bit of information that I am MOST happy to see come to light. As I have long suspicioned after some number of correspondence with vendors, this whole High Mountain White, Finest, Manchurian nonsense was greatly overhyped. I distinctly remember that one member over at wetshavers flatly passed on a Manchurian Simpson after talking with someone at Simpson's about the nature of the bristle. He did not elaborate with the board about his communications with Simpson other than to say he was convinced that it did not warrant it's exhorbitant price. Like you, I say fine and dandy to those who obsess about these brushes. Certain things could/should be bought just for the hell of it. However, I am sorry to see so many newbs wringing their hands over which $350-500 brush to purchase. In the mean time they are missing out on MOST of the fun parts of wetshaving. Trying new or different shave lathers, colognes, or most importantly(as any experienced wetshaver will tell you)a really super+ A/S product. To me, that last is the holy grail. Great brushes and lathers abound. A true A+ aftershave is rare as hens teeth. I eagerly await your brush war comparo and the results. I think we'll all be surprised to say the least.

Todd

Todd,
Thanks! Well what is most telling is the pure VS best VS silvertip Comparo. I mean.... that comparo SHOWS you straght up, there really isn't that much of a difference between a $30 pure badger brush and a $160 silvertip brush as far as generating suitable shaving lather. Any halfway decent shaving brush will be able to generate suitable lather out of a good shaving cream/soap, and the "higher end" brushes might feel differently, but for the most part, they generate very similar lather, and an exponentially more expensive brush does not really improve a shave/skin conditions. I think it is actually a bit ironic that fellows pine over shaving brushes of all things (personally I still like my latherking with the right mix over ANY shaving brush) as they do not seem to have near the impact on shave/skin quality as products/implements do. I think the additional $ would be better suited towards finding the right balm, razor, cream, skin moisturizer, etc.
 
It's redundant, but nevertheless:

From the beginning onwards, i 've allways stated that i could not see discernable differences between all my brushes regarding lather building capabilities. My Vulfix #41 performs as well as my Plisson HMW #20.........

I have really my doubts on the classification of badger hair in terms of upland white, manchurian, genuine white, finest etecetera; recently i purchased two Simpsons best brushes, Polo #12 and Chubby #3 in best; look at the pictures in thisthread.

The pictures don't do right at reality, but the fact is that this best badger has black roots and yellow-white tips, like "genuine Upland White" brushes have; only difference of course is these have white tips.

But when i take my Harvard #6 in best then this brush has the typical three banded colour pattern of silvertip brushes, i.e. light lower band, dark middle band, light upper band.

So, is there also super best and upland best:eek: :biggrin: ????

I think this whole discussion about silvertip/upland white/ genuine white/finest/manchurian is making the best guess there is after months of discussion on the different wetshaving boards; but as i stated before, only the firms as Simpsons, Plisson etc know the EXACT answer but helas, they never chimed in........

Several forum members think they know the "truth", personally i do not thoink we've discovered the quintessence of the qualifying and grading of badger hair, despite the knowledge and wisdom of some forum members.

But, nevertheless, it doesn't spoil my pleasures in my beauties for one single moment!!

Peter
 
I find this whole endless discussion on hair grade quite tiresome. If you find a brush you like the aesthetics of, as well as the performance, more power to you. Don't let anyone tell you it is "inferior".
 
joel said:
Any halfway decent shaving brush will be able to generate suitable lather out of a good shaving cream/soap, and the "higher end" brushes might feel differently, but for the most part, they generate very similar lather, and an exponentially more expensive brush does not really improve a shave/skin conditions. I think it is actually a bit ironic that fellows pine over shaving brushes of all things (personally I still like my latherking with the right mix over ANY shaving brush) as they do not seem to have near the impact on shave/skin quality as products/implements do.

It's all about the enjoyment. Sandpaper might work really damn well to wipe your bung with, but who would want to use it?

All brushes have a different feel, and at least when I'm working them, make different lather. I'm sure each COULD make the same lather, if you got the exact same mix with each, but a shavemac silvertip just holds more water than a 20 dollar pure. Not to say one is better than the other for everyone, and I don't know that hair quality matters for water retention.

I would guess it's a lot like being an audiophile. At the low end, the more you spend gets you a lot of quality. After a certain point (that you reach quickly) though, you're paying through the nose for very VERY minor improvements. I'm very happy with my shavemac, just like I'm happy with a Rotel Amp.
 
Hey I love my Rotel amp too!!

I tend to agree that the shaving brush component of the shave probably contributes the least in terms of better shaves regardless of the increasingly higher $'s spent. However, speaking for myself I think that desire to try and understand what makes up what stems from the fact that if I'm paying for true silvertip then I want to make sure I get true silvertip. The confusing descriptions that get tossed around don't help clarify the situation either and just adds to the "shadiness" or lack of quality control bestowed on manufacturers.

I don't get it - Dr.P has a best that looks like a white?? But someone at Simpsons made the call that this bunch of hair is graded as best....I don't care anymore. I enjoy my Simpsons, my Rooney's and my Shavemacs...and that is what counts.
 
Re-up from the past while looking for how to change the feature of my super floppy silivertip.
 
Well fellas... here it is. After having spoke with multiple badger suppliers directly, a british badger hair sorting/sterilizing firm, and more than half a dozen manufactures directly, I can now describe with confidence WHAT "silvertip" badger hair is.

Silvertip badger hair is an incredibly straight forward term that simply describes a general "class" of badger hair, simply put it has 2 qualifications #1 that it be hair from the back/neck area of the badger #2 that it have a silver coloration at the tips. That... is..... it. Period. An Edwin Jagger "Silvertip" much like a Shavemac "Silvertip" or a Rooney "Silvertip" is in fact the REAL deal, genuine article, and IS in fact SILVERTIP.

This "deep black, white tip, upland" stuff is a TOTALLY different category. It is NOT "Silvertip" and in badger gradings is considered a different "grade" of badger hair, but the common descriptive term "silvertip" which originated to describe to the Chinese (RE: Language Barrier) what type of badger hair was desired is NOT an actual grade of badger hair. Truth is, gradings of badger hairs do not have fluffly names like "best, pure, silvertip, upland white" and if YOU research/source a sorter/supplier and ask them for the aformentioned "grades" of badger hair, they will not have a clue as to what you are talking about. Badger hair is actually "graded" with some for of letter/number system, which I will not speak in depth about, as I really don't know much about it, other than some documents Adam Mendelson had sent me regarding it, and the english (kinda) speaking fellow I spoke with in Asia.

My conclusion thus far, from what manufactures of these brushes have told me directly, is that there is really no discernable "benefit" of these "high mountain" and "upland" badger hairs, and that they are primarily manufactured/offered due to customer demand. In fact, the primary differences tend to be in HOW these "high end" brushes are knotted, cut, shaped, formed, packed, etc - which then provide a different overall "effect" thus giving the perception of the "hair" having these "superlative" qualities when in all actuality it is primarily the knot itself. In fact.... one gentleman went as far as to say - if you were to take 2 of the EXACT same brushes, one with the "3" tiered coloration, and one with the "2" tiered coloration, there would be no realized benefit other than asthetics.

While "Manchurian, High Mountain White, Finest" may feel a little different... it really per se isn't "better" at all... it is simply a more uncommon, and as a result expensive hair. Most of this is a "mental" thing - that if you pay so much $ for a brush you by nature trick yourself into perceiving it is "better."

Bottom line.... if you feel the minute difference in terms of feel, of these "ULTRA-rare" hairs to be your optimal desired characteristics, and the tremendous cost associated with this "upgrade" is of no consequence - by all means indulge. If you just want to own a genuine "Silvertip" shaving brush, and have a damn fine shaving brush - buy a Edwin Jagger, Simpson Super, Shavemac Silvertip, Savile Row Silvertip, Kent, etc with confidence... as you my friend WILL be getting the "real deal" genuine silvertip. Again Rooney, Plisson, Simpson "Ultra Premo" hairs are NOT silvertip - they have white tips, and are of a whole different breed.

See for yourself.... (Below) the "whitest of whites" Rooney Finest isn't a whole lot whiter than a run of the mill - 3 tierd Simpson Chubby 2 Super at the tips. Truth is... without having even used it - I would take the Chubby 2 Super over the Rooney Finest in a HEARTBEAT, as it is a hell of a lot more brush, at 60% less $. While there are an awful lot of fellas preachin' this whole "black to the roots, white at the tip" bunk, many of them don't even have these brushes to use/compare to one another, and are still getting poor newbies all excited and encouraging them to drop heavy coin on these things. I got 'em in my lap, showing you side by side pictures, and I am telling you there isn't much of a difference, save your money..... don't get caught up in the hype.

(Special Note: If you are "shaving gear obsessed" and are buying it for what it is - something rare and uncommon, again - by all means go for it... I have/do. This has been an "informational" bit for new guys who do not know first hand the difference/benefits or lack their of, of the different badger hairs. I personally am happy with the "ultra premo" brushes I have purchased, but that still does not change the fact that there is little benefit from them versus a standard "high end" brush- and these "ultra premo's" are absurdly and unreasonably expensive.)

thank you
 
I'm with him on lather quality, but when we opine about all the 'special' hair grades, aren't we mostly focused on the feel of the hair, softness, density, backbone, etc?
 
Right, so - it's 90% marketing, but there are in fact detectable differences which don't do as much to affect performance as they do to suite preference.
Seems pretty straightforward.

But, I think what this very, very old post goes to show you is that above and beyond efficacy, there are no hard and fast rules. Once you get beyond "it makes good lather with little fuss" you're -- pardon me, but I couldn't resist -- splitting hairs.
 
I find this whole endless discussion on hair grade quite tiresome. If you find a brush you like the aesthetics of, as well as the performance, more power to you. Don't let anyone tell you it is "inferior".

I'm with him on lather quality, but when we opine about all the 'special' hair grades, aren't we mostly focused on the feel of the hair, softness, density, backbone, etc?

Thank you Joel for your research into this matter. I agree that it will help sort out the snakes for the newbies as well as some of us with more experience. I have been wet shaving for many years and in the early years I was well served by an unremarkable boar brush that did a fine job. Over the years I have accumulated more brushes than a mutant octopus could use. Yes, some are more pleasant to use than others but $300.00 plus for a shaving brush...get a grip...it's a shaving brush! It is not my intention to diminish the value that some put on collecting and using expensive brushes or other vine shaving gear for that matter. I have done so myself. I only wish to agree with others that it is not a requirement for getting a fine enjoyable shave, or, perhaps put more succinctly, BBS is possible without the BS. But as always, YMMV.

Best regards,

Doug
 
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